used aircraft purchase / valuation
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used aircraft purchase / valuation
I am considering the purchase of an Aztec. PA-23 or PA-27 - depending on which side of the bed you got out of in the morning.
There are not many for sale (not that I can see anyway), but did see one advertised on
Piper Aztec for sale at K-aircraft
Does the absence of log books mean big problems?
There are not many for sale (not that I can see anyway), but did see one advertised on
Piper Aztec for sale at K-aircraft
Does the absence of log books mean big problems?
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Aztec
Ask yourself why is the a/c for sale?
Does the word dinosaur come to mind?
They are a lovely a/c for the time they were built but those times have changed. Two engines with six cylinders burning lord knows how many litres an hour. Two props, ancient avionics and all of these items just waiting for some EASA engineer to start taking a deep intake of breath before saying ...
" Well sir, we have found a few problems here that will require sorting out before we can issue a new ARC. Pleas open your wallet and say after me help yourself !"
Hope you have deep pockets. If so then go and enjoy it.
Does the word dinosaur come to mind?
They are a lovely a/c for the time they were built but those times have changed. Two engines with six cylinders burning lord knows how many litres an hour. Two props, ancient avionics and all of these items just waiting for some EASA engineer to start taking a deep intake of breath before saying ...
" Well sir, we have found a few problems here that will require sorting out before we can issue a new ARC. Pleas open your wallet and say after me help yourself !"
Hope you have deep pockets. If so then go and enjoy it.
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Does the absence of log books mean big problems?
The log books are like the bible for an aircraft and is where all the history of the aircraft is recorded: number of hours on engines, propellers, airframe, ADs (aircraft directives) and any damage history etc etc...
If there are no log books then I would suspect some skulduggery somewhere.
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There are several organisations which will carry out an inspection, check ADs are complied with etc. For a few hundred pounds I would certainly use their services before purchasing an aircraft.
It could be someone lost the log books - it could be something is being covered up, how would you know?
For info the aircraft is G-BBRA
A little research shows a large number of changes in ownership during the 90's, could be how the log book got lost, could be why it is for sale (yet again), though it seems to have been with the present owner for the last 10 years according to the G-INFO website.
It could be someone lost the log books - it could be something is being covered up, how would you know?
For info the aircraft is G-BBRA
A little research shows a large number of changes in ownership during the 90's, could be how the log book got lost, could be why it is for sale (yet again), though it seems to have been with the present owner for the last 10 years according to the G-INFO website.
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There are several organisations which will carry out an inspection, check ADs are complied with etc. For a few hundred pounds I would certainly use their services before purchasing an aircraft.
I don't think any organisation would issue an ARC without log books.
Sometimes maintenance organisations withhold log books when bills haven't been paid for instance.
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50k euros for a chunky twin is a great deal. But is almost guaranteed you will spend another 50-100 k in the next year if you want to fly it (anyone care to offer another number) chartering jets may prove cheaper.....
Shame really, it would be great to see these old girls in the air more.
Shame really, it would be great to see these old girls in the air more.
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I agree that w/o logbooks it is best to leave it.
The mismatched engine hours, and mismatched prop hours, may indicate a prop strike or similar. Certainly you must get a really good explanation for that bit.
But loads and loads of old planes have missing logbooks, and not everybody has the budget to buy new or newish planes. The vast majority of aircraft owners are not pro-active maintenance "micro managers" and they just dump the old heap at some MO and (usually) write a cheque at the end. Then the company goes bust. I have owned a plane only since 2002 and already have seen CSE (shock load inspection), Air Touring (loads of maintenance and extra work too), and a few other people (including a firm which did all my maintenance for 2 years after the 2 year warranty expired) go bust. Luckily, because I know the ropes to a reasonable degree, I got the paperwork from them before they went.
And nowadays I photograph the Annual work pack every year.
So far only one company has refused to send me a work pack for an overhaul job. I reported them to the CAA but they are not really interested. So I have to get the item overhauled again, this time in the USA.
So it's easy to lose maintenance records. I don't believe a CAMO would refuse to take the plane on board, but they would spend extra time on it checking stuff. A lot of ADs can be verified by inspection. Some, and also the replacement of (non serially numbered) lifed items, cannot be, and I suppose there is a lot of potential for getting screwed. Especially by a less than honest MO... One solution would be to continue to use the existing MO since they are "obviously" happy with it
As regards this particular plane, I hope the buyer knows what he is doing because he is basically buying an old dog. It might be a good old dog, or it could be a really knackered old dog.
Starting with the avionics, if any of it doesn't work, you need to think of 4 digits plus to fix that item. So make sure you (or somebody else) understand it all and check it all in flight. Especially the autopilot
There is some truly Imperial War Museum-grade stuff in that panel.
The airframe needs a thorough inspection by somebody familiar with the type.
I get asked a lot by prospective Socata TB buyers, about various for-sale aircraft. I know one very good man for a pre-buy check but I don't know if he is a Piper specialist.
The mismatched engine hours, and mismatched prop hours, may indicate a prop strike or similar. Certainly you must get a really good explanation for that bit.
But loads and loads of old planes have missing logbooks, and not everybody has the budget to buy new or newish planes. The vast majority of aircraft owners are not pro-active maintenance "micro managers" and they just dump the old heap at some MO and (usually) write a cheque at the end. Then the company goes bust. I have owned a plane only since 2002 and already have seen CSE (shock load inspection), Air Touring (loads of maintenance and extra work too), and a few other people (including a firm which did all my maintenance for 2 years after the 2 year warranty expired) go bust. Luckily, because I know the ropes to a reasonable degree, I got the paperwork from them before they went.
And nowadays I photograph the Annual work pack every year.
So far only one company has refused to send me a work pack for an overhaul job. I reported them to the CAA but they are not really interested. So I have to get the item overhauled again, this time in the USA.
So it's easy to lose maintenance records. I don't believe a CAMO would refuse to take the plane on board, but they would spend extra time on it checking stuff. A lot of ADs can be verified by inspection. Some, and also the replacement of (non serially numbered) lifed items, cannot be, and I suppose there is a lot of potential for getting screwed. Especially by a less than honest MO... One solution would be to continue to use the existing MO since they are "obviously" happy with it
As regards this particular plane, I hope the buyer knows what he is doing because he is basically buying an old dog. It might be a good old dog, or it could be a really knackered old dog.
Starting with the avionics, if any of it doesn't work, you need to think of 4 digits plus to fix that item. So make sure you (or somebody else) understand it all and check it all in flight. Especially the autopilot
There is some truly Imperial War Museum-grade stuff in that panel.The airframe needs a thorough inspection by somebody familiar with the type.
I get asked a lot by prospective Socata TB buyers, about various for-sale aircraft. I know one very good man for a pre-buy check but I don't know if he is a Piper specialist.
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Gyrotyro
"Ask yourself why is the a/c for sale?"
It is for sale because the owner's mission has changed and he has no need for an aircraft that will fly long distance over water and the Alps, day, night, rain etc.
I am not the owner but I talked with him on several occasions.
"Ask yourself why is the a/c for sale?"
It is for sale because the owner's mission has changed and he has no need for an aircraft that will fly long distance over water and the Alps, day, night, rain etc.
I am not the owner but I talked with him on several occasions.
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Quote:
But without the log books it would not be possible for anyone to validate engine hours unless they were to be stripped and rebuilt or to ascertain whether an AD had be complied with without pulling the aircraft apart.
I don't think any organisation would issue an ARC without log books.
Sometimes maintenance organisations withhold log books when bills haven't been paid for instance.
But without the log books it would not be possible for anyone to validate engine hours unless they were to be stripped and rebuilt or to ascertain whether an AD had be complied with without pulling the aircraft apart.
I don't think any organisation would issue an ARC without log books.
Sometimes maintenance organisations withhold log books when bills haven't been paid for instance.
Just to put this into perspective, from the advert:
This Aztec is outside in an excellent condition, the interior is in good condition, but the carpet is worn. It has no damage history but there are some logs missing: Airframe Book #3 starting November 1989 until today is available in addition to all engine and prop logs starting with the overhauls. Presently, it is not sure, if the airframe logs #1, and #2 are available.
No known damage history, windshield de-ice plate unservicable.
Note it is the airframe logs #1, and #2 that are in doubt, not engine or prop logs.
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To me
suggests that engine and prop logbooks are available only starting after the overhauls.
One still needs to get back to where the hours became mismatched. Was it a crash or a prop strike?
Anyway, all this will be obvious when you visit the aircraft and see the paperwork.
£50k is probably a fair price for an old Aztec - if everything on it works. Low-end piston twins tend to be worth more or less just according to the remaining engine hours.
in addition to all engine and prop logs starting with the overhauls.
suggests that engine and prop logbooks are available only starting after the overhauls.
One still needs to get back to where the hours became mismatched. Was it a crash or a prop strike?
Anyway, all this will be obvious when you visit the aircraft and see the paperwork.
£50k is probably a fair price for an old Aztec - if everything on it works. Low-end piston twins tend to be worth more or less just according to the remaining engine hours.
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Log books
If you can go back as far as 1989 with the logs you should not have too much trouble with a reputable CAMO but as usual the better the records are the less trouble you will have with paperwork.
The real peoblem is the value of the aircraft, people have an attitude at the moment that it is a buyers market and expect to pay silly prices. The problem is there are a lot of old dogs that have high time engines, peeling paint, avionics that marconi fitted and smell like there is some sort of pond life in the upholstery. Just add up the cost of putting these things right and you will see that you are likely to spend IRO twice the buying price. However most people would think you mad for buying a "sorted" aircraft for twice the price of an old dog! and what is more the market expects to spend just over the "old dog" price for a sorted aircraft.
The real peoblem is the value of the aircraft, people have an attitude at the moment that it is a buyers market and expect to pay silly prices. The problem is there are a lot of old dogs that have high time engines, peeling paint, avionics that marconi fitted and smell like there is some sort of pond life in the upholstery. Just add up the cost of putting these things right and you will see that you are likely to spend IRO twice the buying price. However most people would think you mad for buying a "sorted" aircraft for twice the price of an old dog! and what is more the market expects to spend just over the "old dog" price for a sorted aircraft.
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The Aztec is a great twin, maybe one of the best - all most built proof, benign handling, amazing load carrying and bags of performance in other words all that is missing from too many light twins.
However they are old designs; transforming most into a top draw aircraft will cost.
In short for me it depends what you want. Spend 100k on almost any aztec and you will be close to a superb twin, spend 50k and it well be tired but serviceable, but which ever suites you may very certain you know EXactly what you are buying, there is really no substitute for a comprehensive survey from a reputable company.
However they are old designs; transforming most into a top draw aircraft will cost.
In short for me it depends what you want. Spend 100k on almost any aztec and you will be close to a superb twin, spend 50k and it well be tired but serviceable, but which ever suites you may very certain you know EXactly what you are buying, there is really no substitute for a comprehensive survey from a reputable company.
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The Aztec has found a new home - it provided me with eleven years of good cross country airways service, but as someone kindly pointed out in the thread it is more aircraft than my current needs.
If you need a de-iced twin that will carry 5 to 6 in comfort, 600nm with IFR reserves they remain a good option - maintenance OK, and today they will all be on a proper schedule to get the ARC.
150KTAS on 75~80 litres is typical airways cruise with 1000 lbs of payload - not economical, but not quite dinosaur territory - perhaps should be thought of as a poor man's KA!
If you need a de-iced twin that will carry 5 to 6 in comfort, 600nm with IFR reserves they remain a good option - maintenance OK, and today they will all be on a proper schedule to get the ARC.
150KTAS on 75~80 litres is typical airways cruise with 1000 lbs of payload - not economical, but not quite dinosaur territory - perhaps should be thought of as a poor man's KA!
