why my instructor made a big deal of taking a photo at the runway?
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Who is an instructor to deny a member the use of their own facilities?
Anyone can be banned on grounds of safety and a FI would be expected to know when the bounds for their particular club had been exceeded and to take the required action. As somebody else has said, we have only the original poster's version of events so without the FI's, or an independent witness' account of events we cannot guess the true seriousness of the matter. We also have no idea of the ensuing conversation after which the FI refused to fly with the poster. Maybe the poster's attitude made a large contrribution to the decision. Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you? I wouldn't. I'm not saying that is what happened, I simply don't know if it did, none of us does, we simply do not have the facts.
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I don't think I've ever suggested that standing in the undershoot is a sensible thing to do. The chances of being "collected" and the distraction you cause are all reasons for not being there. But we entered this thread with a post from someone who was unsure if they had done anything wrong and none of us are any wiser because of the poor attitude of the instructor. And please, let's not have anymore ridiculous scenarios regarding student pilots. The undershoot of any runway is generally not the best place to be.
And while we are here, only with one or two exceptions have I ever seen a glider airbrakes shut that didn't have enough energy to miss a person, even a nasty glider like an Astir can be made to hop over person. The exceptions were gliders in competition finishes which had been "luckily" judged to the inch. The problems with early solo standard pupils, excluding poor SA, are generally due to having far too much energy or a poor appreciation of the performance and control they actually have.
Who said anything about anybody being self-righteous and stroppy? Someone is making things up. And yes, I'll happily flying with anyone, even people who really annoy me but especially those who need instruction. Because that's what instructors do. What they shouldn't do is go flying when they are having problems at home.
Which brings me on to a larger point. Gliding clubs often have drives for new members and most spend an inordinate amount of time and resource in marketing themselves. All of this effort is wasted if the new members are chased off by childish instructors - which I have seen far too often.
My comment regarding competition finishes was made so that a pointless death like that of Neil Lawson could be prevented without detracting from the sport. Safe flying is all about risk management but a total prohibition on certain manoeuvres and aspects of gliding will do nothing to improve overall safety.
PM
And while we are here, only with one or two exceptions have I ever seen a glider airbrakes shut that didn't have enough energy to miss a person, even a nasty glider like an Astir can be made to hop over person. The exceptions were gliders in competition finishes which had been "luckily" judged to the inch. The problems with early solo standard pupils, excluding poor SA, are generally due to having far too much energy or a poor appreciation of the performance and control they actually have.
Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you?
Which brings me on to a larger point. Gliding clubs often have drives for new members and most spend an inordinate amount of time and resource in marketing themselves. All of this effort is wasted if the new members are chased off by childish instructors - which I have seen far too often.
My comment regarding competition finishes was made so that a pointless death like that of Neil Lawson could be prevented without detracting from the sport. Safe flying is all about risk management but a total prohibition on certain manoeuvres and aspects of gliding will do nothing to improve overall safety.
PM
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Who said anything about anybody being self-righteous and stroppy? Someone is making things up.
Maybe the poster's attitude made a large contribution to the decision. Would you want to fly with someone who you felt had endangered both you and himself and then became all self-righteous and stroppy with you? I wouldn't. I'm not saying that is what happened, I simply don't know if it did, none of us does, we simply do not have the facts.
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The opening post ended
"I know what I did was wrong, but is it that big deal?" (sic)
IMHO risking getting yourself killed, or worse risking causing someone else to get killed IS a big deal.
And if the poster used that kind of phrase to the instructor at the time, I'm not at all surprised if fuses were blown.
"I know what I did was wrong, but is it that big deal?" (sic)
IMHO risking getting yourself killed, or worse risking causing someone else to get killed IS a big deal.
And if the poster used that kind of phrase to the instructor at the time, I'm not at all surprised if fuses were blown.
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I wonder, just wonder, if he posted here in the hope that we would all say "There, there, take no notice of the nasty instructor, he doesn't know what he's talking about, of course it wasn't a big deal." and that he could then turn round to the FI and say "Look at what everyone has written on PPRuNe." If he was, then his hopes will most certainly have been dashed - and quite right too.
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Got to be honest, I was thinking the same as DX Wombat, or possibly more along the lines of, he didn't have anything better to do than see how many responses he could get from a wind up post!
Just one little thing I would add though, surely there was a CFI or a Duty Instructor type at the club involved, why did they not notice someone stood in the undershoot? After all it is dangerous to the fool who stands there, and the poor person flying the a/c. So there should be some form of supervision on the ground as well.
WH
Just one little thing I would add though, surely there was a CFI or a Duty Instructor type at the club involved, why did they not notice someone stood in the undershoot? After all it is dangerous to the fool who stands there, and the poor person flying the a/c. So there should be some form of supervision on the ground as well.
WH
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And now because he has posted, he'll understand that not only is undershoot a bad place to be but also that he should expect more of his instructor. He'll also see that the there are lots of "safety police" who enjoy punishment (S&M maybe?) and other people who are quite laid back. All in all, the OP probably got more than he bargained for.
PM
PM
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My comment regarding competition finishes was made so that a pointless death like that of Neil Lawson could be prevented without detracting from the sport. Safe flying is all about risk management but a total prohibition on certain manoeuvres and aspects of gliding will do nothing to improve overall safety.
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Neil Lawson was an excellent photographer and a good pilot, i only had the privilege of meeting him once but his pictures still adorn the café at Lasham, you can even see his shots here the white planes picture co - aviation image library. Photographs and videos of aviation and airsports
His parent left the site up as a memorial.
Nice chap, i was keen to get into some amateur Air to Air photography and he was more than happy to give pointers.
I had actually heard he was directing gliders on the ground when hit but obviously not.
So the original Poster should take note, and other pilots should feel free to comment if they see anything unsafe no matter if your on 'duty' or not.
I'd rather have a quiet word in my ear than a prop up my backside.
His parent left the site up as a memorial.
Nice chap, i was keen to get into some amateur Air to Air photography and he was more than happy to give pointers.
I had actually heard he was directing gliders on the ground when hit but obviously not.
So the original Poster should take note, and other pilots should feel free to comment if they see anything unsafe no matter if your on 'duty' or not.
I'd rather have a quiet word in my ear than a prop up my backside.
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(actions speak louder than words after all) and carried on with their reckless stupidity. The instructor was instructing by not instructing.
well said mur007
and i didn't write this post to justify what i did with supporters from some of you ...i just came here to see what you guys will say
some of us just learn the hard way
well said mur007
and i didn't write this post to justify what i did with supporters from some of you ...i just came here to see what you guys will say
some of us just learn the hard way
Glider fields by their nature invite more accidental contacts between people and aircraft than at power fields.
First of all there are more people about retrieving and putting gliders on the line plus a bunch of people hanging about waiting for their flight. With power fields the only people about are on the ramp or tiedowns.
Second, gliders don't make up much noise; so, they can sneak up from behind.
Remember also that Joe Student or hotshot competition pilot may have gotten low and is squeezing it in over the trees on one of the other runways who will not be spotted until he is on the ground. (Much better to pick out a reasonable field with sufficient height to fly a decent circuit).
First of all there are more people about retrieving and putting gliders on the line plus a bunch of people hanging about waiting for their flight. With power fields the only people about are on the ramp or tiedowns.
Second, gliders don't make up much noise; so, they can sneak up from behind.
Remember also that Joe Student or hotshot competition pilot may have gotten low and is squeezing it in over the trees on one of the other runways who will not be spotted until he is on the ground. (Much better to pick out a reasonable field with sufficient height to fly a decent circuit).
Whatever happened to commonsense?
I have flown at many gliding sites - both civilian and Air Cadet training. If any conflict seemed likely, the commonsense rule was to stop moving and face the landing aircraft who could then pick a landing run without having to worry about moving personnel, retrieve tractors, etc. The landing area was situated so as not to interfere with the winch cable run. The winch cable tow-out driver was facing the right way, and his course was obvious - so no need for him to stop except in a rare situation.
Kids, dogs and enthusiasts around the launch point control "caravan" were the biggest hazard, but were always instructed in the safe way to behave. Duty Pilot - who's that pillock out in the undershoot???
And a good safe fun time was to had by all.
I have flown at many gliding sites - both civilian and Air Cadet training. If any conflict seemed likely, the commonsense rule was to stop moving and face the landing aircraft who could then pick a landing run without having to worry about moving personnel, retrieve tractors, etc. The landing area was situated so as not to interfere with the winch cable run. The winch cable tow-out driver was facing the right way, and his course was obvious - so no need for him to stop except in a rare situation.
Kids, dogs and enthusiasts around the launch point control "caravan" were the biggest hazard, but were always instructed in the safe way to behave. Duty Pilot - who's that pillock out in the undershoot???
And a good safe fun time was to had by all.
How long before they start carrying air-horns?
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Story I heard from a few years ago.
This gliding club was renting their field from a farmer, or the farmer was paying for the hay/manure rights. Or something like that. In any case, both the farmer and the club were using the field for their own purposes.
One day the CFI was on final approach and sees the farmer standing at the side of the field. CFI chooses his landing place, only to be confronted by the farmer walking directly into it. So the CFI banks and picks a new place. Farmer again walks into the path of the landing aircraft.
Eventually the aircraft lands safely. The farmer walks up to the glider and shouts at the CFI: "Why do you keep turning away from me. You saw I wanted to talk to you!"
This gliding club was renting their field from a farmer, or the farmer was paying for the hay/manure rights. Or something like that. In any case, both the farmer and the club were using the field for their own purposes.
One day the CFI was on final approach and sees the farmer standing at the side of the field. CFI chooses his landing place, only to be confronted by the farmer walking directly into it. So the CFI banks and picks a new place. Farmer again walks into the path of the landing aircraft.
Eventually the aircraft lands safely. The farmer walks up to the glider and shouts at the CFI: "Why do you keep turning away from me. You saw I wanted to talk to you!"
