Instrument Approaches - Where?

[Yellow Son]

In a separate thread, I have explored the problem of getting Instrument Approaches at MOD airfields at an affordable cost. Short answer is I can't.

So what have other Pruners found to be a reasonable way of flying instrument approaches without a second mortgage? I fly from Goodwood, so it seems to be Shoreham or nothing, but I'm not ready to give up just yet.

[I Love Flying]

I have heard that if you want to practice multiple ILS approaches, it is cost-effective to fly to Cherbourg from the South Coast and do them there. Apparently the savings made pretty much cover the cost of the fuel to get there. Plus Luc and Edith are always ready with a warm welcome for visitors....

[cessnapete]

ILS

And Calais! A year ago, all day there with HS125 about £100 for unlimited approaches. (A good restaurant as well)

[A and C]

I have to agree with the people who say go to France, it would seem that UK airfields would prefer 100% of nothing rather that a small slice of the action between the other traffic.

It makes me wonder if putting the ILS from Plymouth or Fliton on one of old gun towers in the Thames estuary would provide inexpensive training for IR students?

[Avionyx]

I have heard many good things about using Cherbourg, many of my friends have done exactly that and been very pleased with the value for money - nice trip too!

[Gertrude the Wombat]

0p per approach at Cambridge if you're using a club aircraft. Don't other places do that?

[Genghis the Engineer]

- When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!

- Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.

- If you have a KNS80 on board, set up a VOR approach onto a disused airfield somewhere.

And needless to say - remember you're VFR and see-and-avoid is still the game in all such cases.


Apart from that, spend £100 or so on a PC sim system designed for instrument practice.

G

[007helicopter]

Confirm Calais multiple approaches and just the landing fee about 11 euros, they also have GPS approaches so a very good option with the restaurant now for refreshemnt.

[007helicopter]

When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!

Why not just ask for the full procedure or vectors to the ILS, I have not been charged any nore for this and have recently done exactly that at Filton, Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich where I had to go anyway and am not aware charged any more than a normal VFR landing.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by 007helicopter

Why not just ask for the full procedure or vectors to the ILS, I have not been charged any nore for this and have recently done exactly that at Filton, Newcastle, Birmingham and Norwich where I had to go anyway and am not aware charged any more than a normal VFR landing.

Worth checking, at Cranfield (where I keep a share) it's another £17.50 (or £24 if you are a Bonus student ).

G

[Whopity]

Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.

How do you know it won't annoy anybody? All surplus NDBs and VORs have been decommissioned with a reduction to just 17 VORs planned. Concentrating training aircraft over such aids is a recipe for an Airprox if not a Mid Air.

It might explain why some candidates for the IMC test have no idea how to fly an approach into an airfield or how to make the associated RT calls.

[Yellow Son]

"It might explain why some candidates for the IMC test have no idea how to fly an approach into an airfield or how to make the associated RT calls."


I assume Whopity has some evidence for this assertion, but it has nothing to do with what I was asking, or the sensible suggestions from Ghengis. Candidates who "have no idea" have been badly taught, end of story.

I'm not talking about getting an IMC rating, I'm concerned with getting enough practice to keep it valid now I have it.

[Yellow Son]

To Ghengis the Engineer. Thanks, all sound advice. I don't have a KNS80, and wouldn't know one if it fell on me, but I do fly a C172 with Garmin G1000 which has that kind of capability.

I have lots of software, and value it highly, but after 50 years flying I still find things get a little harder when there's engine noise but no pause button!

[Fuji Abound]

I think, but could be wrong, that Whopity was simply lementing how much more difficult it is for instrument rated pilots to remain current these days.

Flying planned approaches (particularly in the UK) has become more costly and difficult. Schools have for long used VORs for all sorts of instrument work and the demise of many VORs will only result in greater honey pot activity often OCAS and therefore without radar cover.

It certainly makes sense to request an instrument approach whenever you travel away if one is available - often these do not attract additional charges although there are some places that do charge if the approach is in anything like VMC.

[Whopity]

Candidates who "have no idea" have been badly taught, end of story.

The ones I am referring to, were taught a long time ago! I have been asked to test numerous IMC rating holders who, despite having held the rating for a number of years, and completed a number of revalidations, have obviously never flown an approach to an airfield because they were taught, and most likely tested over an en-route aid! Until they can demonstrate an approach at an airfield, they don't pass! It is as Fuji says getting more difficult to find an airfield to conduct the test correctly.

[IO540]

IMHO it is not hard to find somewhere with an IAP. What is hard is find one which is "cheap".

You can fly an ILS at Lydd for about £18. Is that too much? I don't think so; one might burn £50-£100 in fuel getting there, so I don't see the big deal.

Flying is not the most expensive hobby one could have, but it isn't dirt cheap either.

IFR capability is also not cheap and never has been. A piece of IFR avionics might cost £3000 to replace.

[proudprivate]

cheap ways to stay instrument current

- When flying VFR to anywhere with an approach, ask for a straight in, and fly the approach anyhow. Just don't press the button when making the radio calls!

Wouldn't that upset ATC (not to mention being dangerous as it might disrupt inbound traffic) ? Intercepting an ILS as opposed to a true straight in is one thing, flying a procedure NDB might put you 8 miles from the airport...

Also, and in relation to your second and third suggestion :

- Pick a convenient VOR or NDB somewhere that won't annoy anybody and set up your own fake approach onto an imaginary airfield.

- If you have a KNS80 on board, set up a VOR approach onto a disused airfield somewhere.

does that help you to stay current ? i.e. if you say you go for a straight in and you de facto fly an ILS; or if you DIY a VOR "approach" into a disused airfield, could you legally log that as an instrument approach ? If you could, then a safer way could be to pick an enroute VOR, and fly an approach at "real altitudes + X" (this was Barry Schiff's recommendation in AOPA Magazine a couple of years back).

The cheapest way by far to stay current I know of is to use an instructor and a flight training device (if you compare it to £100 in fuel and maintenance to get there, and then another £100 to fly 6 approaches and another £100 to fly back; £18 per approach at Lydd, or £18 for the first one and the rest on the house, like at many French municipals ?).

Also, I think it's good practice to systematically fly the instrument approach if you go somewhere. In fact, unless I'm really in a hurry, I always decline a straight in for a procedural instrument approach. After all, us private pilots don't do 300 hours a year, so you do your best to stay instrument current whenever you have the occasion. Same thing for night currency by the way : but with noise abatement rules that has become even trickier of late...

And needless to say - remember you're VFR and see-and-avoid is still the game in all such cases.

hear hear... (or fly with a RHS pilot friend who plays the game for you)

For just practicing while studying for the instrument rating, I found FS very helpful, not to get impatient with the needles when there is a crosswind, for instance. It's also useful to prepare particularly complicated procedures (such as the now defunct VOR-A approach into Reims Prunay; or mountainous airfields like Annecy (LFLP) that specifically require it for commercial operators)

from French AIP:

OPERATIONAL REQUIREMENTS, FOR FOREIGN OR NATIONAL COMMERCIAL
OPERATORS
Reconnaissance of the airport terrain or training in a flight simulator provided
with a special optic layout approved for that purpose is mandatory for
pilots in command. Reconnaissance must cover all procedures of the airport
intended to be used by the operator. Failure to comply with it will result
in each approach and take-off to be carried out by day only at raised

minima of 3000 ft ceiling and 5000 m visibility.

[Fuji Abound]

As io says flying aint cheap, there is a fact, but, cost is relative. At many uk airports the cost of half a dozen approaches adds up whereas in france it adds up to a lot less. Its a straw that brakes the camels back and a reason why private pilots are just that little bit less current.

As to approaches in general my philosphy is that if at are good enough to accomodate you fitting you into the flow is their concern and as good training for them as us. I have yet to have a problem and more often than not suspect they "enjoy" fitting a little ga traffic in with everyone else. Ask many places for a sar and you can almost see the smile over the radio, we enjoy it dont we and so does the controller?

As to mfs its a pretty good tool but after a while it nevers seems quite the same as a real approach in real weather but perhaps thats because i hate real weather, but for some reason it never bothers me on or in a sim.

[IO540]

One should take every opportunity to fly an instrument approach, even on a clear day.

Most airports don't change extra for it. Cranfield at £30 is one obscene exception but they don't want visitors; they have the FTO business.

If you want to bang a whole load of approaches, go to France.

[Yellow Son]

Instrument Approaches - Smile and Pay Up

Well, I am grateful for the large amount of feedback to my original question. It has not only given me some ideas, it has stimulated quite a lot of discussion and exposed some different views.

The bottom line for me is that I recognise the need to keep myself in practice, in Instrument Approaches as much as every other skill. Of course, I do expect to pay for the use of facilities, I just don't want to donate an arm and a leg if there is an alternative. It seems that I may be in an unlucky minority compared with many of those responding. My home airfield has no Instrument Approach facilities of any kind (despite having its 'own' NDB), so I am obliged to go elsewhere to practise. As to why my club chose to re-equip with such a high-spec avionics fit, you may well ask!

Only 3 airfields are within reasonable distance. Southampton is a busy commercial operation that doesn't want GA. Shoreham has no ILS or radar. RAF Odiham is ideal but charges almost £70 for a single approach without landing. Lydd is probably the next most 'convenient', but at 60 miles each way 'convenient' isn't a description that springs to mind.

So I guess I'll use Shoreham to keep my hand in with NDB and RNAV, and resign myself to practising ILS using software, until I have a reason to go somewhere that has SRA, PAR or ILS.

A minor side-issue that has cropped up during my casting about has been the difficulty in finding out what fees are charged in practice. Leaving aside the complete impenetrability of the MOD system, I have failed to get definite figures from websites such as Bournemouth, Oxford and Lydd. Have others found it easier just to enquire by telephone, or is it just me?