Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Non-Airline Forums > Private Flying
Reload this Page >

CAA Updates on EASA

Private Flying LAA/BMAA/BGA/BPA The sheer pleasure of flight.

CAA Updates on EASA

Old 9th Mar 2011, 13:07
  #1 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
CAA Updates on EASA

UK CAA has issued updates on the anticipated effects of EASA FCL on UK Pilot Licensing and also a summary of recent CAA activity in relation to EASA. Details on the AOPA UK news page.
Mike Cross is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 13:56
  #2 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,596
Thanks for posting. Well worth a read. Although at the same time, slightly headache-inducing.
BackPacker is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 17:01
  #3 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Home
Posts: 903
EASA

Having read the CAA bumph I too have a headache!

I have a JAA ATPL which will be an EASA compliant licence. I own an Annex II Cessna 170B which is non EASA. What licence do I need in 2012 to fly it in UK.

I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
cessnapete is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 17:07
  #4 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Chesterfield
Age: 28
Posts: 17
The thing that is confusing me is that it says (as I read it) that a holder of a JAA-PPL (A) will be able to fly EASA aircraft up to 2000kg and up to four seats.

The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have.
ah147 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 17:21
  #5 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Cotswolds UK
Age: 53
Posts: 18
Thanks for posting - that's exactly what I've been trying to find for months!

Looks like (providing the medical requirements *are* almost identical to current NPPL) I may well get to spread my wings with the LAPL

<crosses fingers>

In my mind I was expecting one of the following three outcomes for me - everything from my flying will have to stop completely - through continuing UK only on Annex 2 aircraft - through to the possibility of getting the LAPL.

At least the first threat appears gone - with likelyhood that I'll be able to get the LAPL.

Did I hear that LAPL would include ratings?

Iain
851Pilot is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 17:47
  #6 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Savannah GA & Portsmouth UK
Posts: 1,784
I have a JAA ATPL which will be an EASA compliant licence. I own an Annex II Cessna 170B which is non EASA. What licence do I need in 2012 to fly it in UK.

I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
1. Your JAA ATPL will not be an EASA compliant licence, however you will be able to exchange it for an EASA one which will be valid to fly EASA and non-EASA aircraft registered in the EU.

2. AIUI the proposal is that if the operator of the non EU registered a/c (in your case N Reg) aircraft is resident or established in the EU then you will need a licence validation or an EASA licence that would entitle you to fly the a/c. In your case it seems academic because you will hold an EASA ATPL.

Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.

The intention is that validation will only be for a max of one year so:-
Pilot X can fly on his FAA ticket under the privileges of his FAA IR for up to a year.
Thereafter his FAA licence will not be valid to fly that particular a/c and he'll be required to have an EASA licence. If his FAA licence is not valid to fly the a/c then where does it leave his IR capability?

Although his FAA licence is no longer valid to fly that a/c it would still be valid for flying an identical a/c in the EU that is operated by someone not resident in the EU.

I don't think they've quite thought through the concept of an "operator". In the case of CAT it's not an issue, it's the holder of the AOC but in the case of a private flight what's the answer?
Mike Cross is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 17:54
  #7 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: london
Posts: 677
Quote

"The thing that is confusing me is that it says (as I read it) that a holder of a JAA-PPL (A) will be able to fly EASA aircraft up to 2000kg and up to four seats.

The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have."

I think that you will find that this restriction refers to National licences after 2015 (i.e. NPPL or old style CAA non-expiring PPL unless it's converted).

JAA PPL's will become EASA licence's without any such restriction.

Having said that, it's not the clearest of read's...!
wsmempson is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 18:11
  #8 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA
Posts: 13,786
Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.
That is the biggest chestnut, which EASA is doing best to bull**t over.

The intention is that validation will only be for a max of one year so:-
Pilot X can fly on his FAA ticket under the privileges of his FAA IR for up to a year.
Thereafter his FAA licence will not be valid to fly that particular a/c and he'll be required to have an EASA licence. If his FAA licence is not valid to fly the a/c then where does it leave his IR capability?
He won't have any.

Although his FAA licence is no longer valid to fly that a/c it would still be valid for flying an identical a/c in the EU that is operated by someone not resident in the EU.
Yes

Actually his FAA license/rating will always be valid, and will be required to fly the N-reg plane to comply with State of Registry requirements under ICAO. Only the FAA can invalidate your FAA papers. "All" that is happening is that EASA also requires an EASA license/rating while you are in EU airspace.

I don't think they've quite thought through the concept of an "operator". In the case of CAT it's not an issue, it's the holder of the AOC but in the case of a private flight what's the answer?
There are multiple answers according to circumstances.

In the CAT case, they will have to exempt them all anyway if they hold an AOC, otherwise a Continental 747 won't be allowed to land at Heathrow.

For non-AOC cases, it depends on whether you can establish a non-EU operator. Clearly, for some example of a syndicated / "fractional ownership" business, you can have a 100% straight operator which is a company in say Jersey. With a booking website, and the Jersey company having control of it, nobody will be able to challenge this, IMHO. Same if the Jersey company simply rented it out. It is more difficult for an ordinary private owner of a single aircraft, living in the EU. An operating company in that case will be obviously contrived. Which is not to say it won't stand up; loads of schemes which are merely avoidance schemes do stand up. Only in specific cases are they set aside (HMRC have established some of those).

I am convinced that this stuff was put together by amateur lawyers in some EASA committee, without proper legal advice from people who actually know aviation. The wording they use has no precedent in aviation, it would create havoc not just around the EU but internationally, it will make the EU a laughing stock of the world's richest people (who all fly in nice planes) and there is no framework for policing such a nebulous concept as an non EU resident operator.

EASA is not really an aviation organisation; it's a gravy train which employs a lot of clever people (because they get paid so much) but they are out of touch and are running private agendas which in this case is an envy-driven anti-American one.

Obviously if I have any good workaround ideas I won't be writing about them
IO540 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 20:23
  #9 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 233
I had a good read, and understood about 1% of that!

So, here's two questions, if anybody fancies taking a punt at answering.

1. After 8/4/2012, are all new licenses issued going to be EASA, or will they continue to issue NPPL until 8/4/2014 (or was it 2015)?

2. At present, there is a conversion path from NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA). Will that disappear after 2012, 2014, 2015, or what? I seem to recall reading something about NPPL(M) will only count as minimal contribution towards the new EASA PPL, but what about the EASA LAPL?

I'm learning to fly a fixed wing microlight now, and that is what I am most interested in right now. However, I was thinking that some time in the future, it might be fun to convert that to an NPPL(SSEA). Is that going to be barred to me after April 2012? If so, I better get my skates on!

Ta...IPZ
IanPZ is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 20:57
  #10 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2,415
After 8/4/2012, are all new licenses issued going to be EASA
No, the UK will continue to issue the NPPL for use on Annex II aircraft and, additionally, will recommence issuing the national PPL, CPL and ATPL for the same purpose.
At present, there is a conversion path from NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA). Will that disappear after....
No, but the licence will be valid only on Annex II SSEAs
what about the EASA LAPL?
There are currently no crediting arrangements for the NPPL towards the LAPL, although that is not say that such arrangements will not be developed before 8/4/2012.
Your JAA ATPL will not be an EASA compliant licence
All licences issued in accordance with JAR-FCL will be deemed to be EASA licences from 8/4/2012. When the current JAA ATPL expires it will be replaced with the EASA equivalent. In the UK, an EASA ATPL(A) that includes an SEP Class Rating will be valid on an Annex II SEP aeroplane
BillieBob is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 21:32
  #11 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 76
Posts: 1,201
Billie Bob and Beagle seem to know what is actually happening.

I've had enough of it for now,my JAA PPL licence expires in a couple of months,and I've applied for a NPPL ,forms and cheque gone,and await the shiny new licence.
If I find I can't fly because of new rules which exclude me,I have a cunning plan.

Line dancing
Lister Noble is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 21:32
  #12 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: London
Age: 47
Posts: 585
This all seems to be making something fiendishly complicated out of something much simpler, which works perfectly well
julian_storey is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 21:39
  #13 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 50
Posts: 233
BillieBob, That's great. Thanks so much. Still sounds like if I do get my NPPL(M) early enough, its still worth looking at doing the conversion before 2012, but it doesn't seem to be that its completely closed to me.

Really appreciate the help.

TA. IPZ
IanPZ is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 21:56
  #14 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: now in Zomerset
Age: 58
Posts: 124
It is astonishing that after years of effort in trying to harmonise FCL across the EU, the CAA now has to reactivate the issue of national licences and duplicate things more than they ever were.

And how much is this all going to cost, I ask, and for what?
peter272 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 22:16
  #15 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA
Posts: 13,786
I don't think the CAA wants to kick out the N-reg community.

Firstly they would be kicking out the best quality end of GA. This will impact the whole industry, all the way to maintenance companies losing their best funded customers.

Secondly they are going to get sued by various professional pilots for loss of income caused by the demolition of a very long established operating regime.

But I expect the CAA (and others) to keep its powder dry till it's needed. EASA/EU is a bunch of clever b*stards; they've had 50 years of practice of dishonest wheeling and dealing under the table.
IO540 is offline  
Old 9th Mar 2011, 23:04
  #16 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Swansea, UK
Age: 43
Posts: 43
Phew!

I just read the original link; much like others, I have now turned to alcohol to ease my headache!

I was going to pose questions, but they've already been answered, so I just wanted to thank BillieBob & Beagle for what appears to be a huge font of EASA knowledge!

Thanks,

WH
WelshHopper is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2011, 07:41
  #17 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Cotswolds
Age: 63
Posts: 1,261
Well, if AOPA etcetera have failed to generate a European wide revolt, we only have ourselves to blame, we ARE after all the community....
vanHorck is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2011, 08:36
  #18 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: London
Posts: 424
Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.
This situation is that by April 2012 you will need to get an EASA PPL IR, as well as your FAA IR. You could go for the 1 year validation, but that is a waste of time, unless you intend moving out of the EU within a year, since the validation requirements duplicate much of the getting the full rating requirements.

The state you are registered in may choose to apply a 'derogation' which pushes back the requirement from April 2012 to April 2014. I guess this is likely but not certain for most countries.

In the interval between April 2012 and April 2014, EASA and the USA may sign a Bilateral Agreement for mutual licence acceptance. I wouldn't rate the chances of that very highly...

You could depend upon some lobbying, or lawsuits, or 'havoc' in the busines jet community changing this. However, this has been written about for years and the total result of the lobbying has been the 2 year derogation and the threat of lawsuits and 'havoc' has been zilch. You could depend on some avoidance of the concept of being an Operator resident in the EU. IMHO, the lawsuits/havoc/avoiding the Operator definition have close to zero chance of being effective. The 2 year derogation looks likely. The Bilateral treaty is an unknown, at best I'd guess a 50% chance of something meaningful in the next few years - but I would not expect that to mean "zero" requirements to do some EASA training or testing.

It's down to you. If "likely" is good enough, then wait and see. If not, I'd get on with an FAA to JAA IR conversion. There is a year to go to 2012, and in my experience, whilst the conversion could be done in weeks, just the exams could take 6-12months if you are fitting in with full time work and family life. This is not trying to scare anyone - I think a derogation is likely. But, if you want certainty, you will not get it other than by doing a conversion now.

In the CAT case, they will have to exempt them all anyway if they hold an AOC, otherwise a Continental 747 won't be allowed to land at Heathrow
Nope. Continental is not an operator resident in the EU. None of this affects non-EU airlines and there will be no need to 'exempt' them.
421C is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2011, 09:07
  #19 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Belgium
Posts: 380
Move your @rses into gear and send emails...

Well, if AOPA etcetera have failed to generate a European wide revolt, we only have ourselves to blame, we ARE after all the community....
I think the European Parliament is very much aware of the situation, and several political fractions are discussing how to deal with it. The more stirr 60000 pilots make, the more chance of a parliamentary rebuttal

The CAA, motivated by the prospect of generating some more fee income and hiring some extra legal staff to convert legislation, is presenting this as a done deal. It is NOT. Write to your MEP's TODAY, exposing the Aviation Safety Unit of the Commission, EASA and your CAA representatives at the EASA commitee for the anti-democratic weasels that they are.

You can find sufficient materials in EASA N-reg thread in this forum. Focus on the economic impact, likely lawsuits, deviations from the EASA mandate, overall intransparency of the process.

The next transport committee of the European Parliament is next Monday, where the topic is likely to be on the agenda.
proudprivate is offline  
Old 10th Mar 2011, 10:09
  #20 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA
Posts: 13,786
I wonder what the possibility is of the current seven JAA IR exams being void if/when EASA brings in this crap, if you haven't done the IR checkride by then?

A friend of mine is a commercial (bizjet) pilot (non UK) who is having to re-do all 14 ATP exams. He had a national ATPL but they have decided it is no longer good enough and they refused to grandfather it.
IO540 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.