CAA Updates on EASA
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CAA Updates on EASA
UK CAA has issued updates on the anticipated effects of EASA FCL on UK Pilot Licensing and also a summary of recent CAA activity in relation to EASA. Details on the AOPA UK news page.
EASA
Having read the CAA bumph I too have a headache!
I have a JAA ATPL which will be an EASA compliant licence. I own an Annex II Cessna 170B which is non EASA. What licence do I need in 2012 to fly it in UK.
I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
I have a JAA ATPL which will be an EASA compliant licence. I own an Annex II Cessna 170B which is non EASA. What licence do I need in 2012 to fly it in UK.
I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
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The thing that is confusing me is that it says (as I read it) that a holder of a JAA-PPL (A) will be able to fly EASA aircraft up to 2000kg and up to four seats.
The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have.
The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have.
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Thanks for posting - that's exactly what I've been trying to find for months!
Looks like (providing the medical requirements *are* almost identical to current NPPL) I may well get to spread my wings with the LAPL
<crosses fingers>
In my mind I was expecting one of the following three outcomes for me - everything from my flying will have to stop completely - through continuing UK only on Annex 2 aircraft - through to the possibility of getting the LAPL.
At least the first threat appears gone - with likelyhood that I'll be able to get the LAPL.
Did I hear that LAPL would include ratings?
Iain
Looks like (providing the medical requirements *are* almost identical to current NPPL) I may well get to spread my wings with the LAPL
<crosses fingers>
In my mind I was expecting one of the following three outcomes for me - everything from my flying will have to stop completely - through continuing UK only on Annex 2 aircraft - through to the possibility of getting the LAPL.
At least the first threat appears gone - with likelyhood that I'll be able to get the LAPL.
Did I hear that LAPL would include ratings?
Iain
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I have a JAA ATPL which will be an EASA compliant licence. I own an Annex II Cessna 170B which is non EASA. What licence do I need in 2012 to fly it in UK.
I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
I also fly an N reg turbo prop single on my FAA CPL/IR, nothing mentioned in CAA blurb, so assume N Reg etc in Europe still to be decided by EASA.
2. AIUI the proposal is that if the operator of the non EU registered a/c (in your case N Reg) aircraft is resident or established in the EU then you will need a licence validation or an EASA licence that would entitle you to fly the a/c. In your case it seems academic because you will hold an EASA ATPL.
Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.
The intention is that validation will only be for a max of one year so:-
Pilot X can fly on his FAA ticket under the privileges of his FAA IR for up to a year.
Thereafter his FAA licence will not be valid to fly that particular a/c and he'll be required to have an EASA licence. If his FAA licence is not valid to fly the a/c then where does it leave his IR capability?
Although his FAA licence is no longer valid to fly that a/c it would still be valid for flying an identical a/c in the EU that is operated by someone not resident in the EU.
I don't think they've quite thought through the concept of an "operator". In the case of CAT it's not an issue, it's the holder of the AOC but in the case of a private flight what's the answer?
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Quote
"The thing that is confusing me is that it says (as I read it) that a holder of a JAA-PPL (A) will be able to fly EASA aircraft up to 2000kg and up to four seats.
The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have."
I think that you will find that this restriction refers to National licences after 2015 (i.e. NPPL or old style CAA non-expiring PPL unless it's converted).
JAA PPL's will become EASA licence's without any such restriction.
Having said that, it's not the clearest of read's...!
"The thing that is confusing me is that it says (as I read it) that a holder of a JAA-PPL (A) will be able to fly EASA aircraft up to 2000kg and up to four seats.
The weight I'm not sure about, but a lot of people with Cherokee 6s, Beech Bonanzas etc will be very upset by these. Unless I've read it wrong. Which I probably have."
I think that you will find that this restriction refers to National licences after 2015 (i.e. NPPL or old style CAA non-expiring PPL unless it's converted).
JAA PPL's will become EASA licence's without any such restriction.
Having said that, it's not the clearest of read's...!
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Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.
The intention is that validation will only be for a max of one year so:-
Pilot X can fly on his FAA ticket under the privileges of his FAA IR for up to a year.
Thereafter his FAA licence will not be valid to fly that particular a/c and he'll be required to have an EASA licence. If his FAA licence is not valid to fly the a/c then where does it leave his IR capability?
Pilot X can fly on his FAA ticket under the privileges of his FAA IR for up to a year.
Thereafter his FAA licence will not be valid to fly that particular a/c and he'll be required to have an EASA licence. If his FAA licence is not valid to fly the a/c then where does it leave his IR capability?
Although his FAA licence is no longer valid to fly that a/c it would still be valid for flying an identical a/c in the EU that is operated by someone not resident in the EU.
Actually his FAA license/rating will always be valid, and will be required to fly the N-reg plane to comply with State of Registry requirements under ICAO. Only the FAA can invalidate your FAA papers. "All" that is happening is that EASA also requires an EASA license/rating while you are in EU airspace.
I don't think they've quite thought through the concept of an "operator". In the case of CAT it's not an issue, it's the holder of the AOC but in the case of a private flight what's the answer?
In the CAT case, they will have to exempt them all anyway if they hold an AOC, otherwise a Continental 747 won't be allowed to land at Heathrow.
For non-AOC cases, it depends on whether you can establish a non-EU operator. Clearly, for some example of a syndicated / "fractional ownership" business, you can have a 100% straight operator which is a company in say Jersey. With a booking website, and the Jersey company having control of it, nobody will be able to challenge this, IMHO. Same if the Jersey company simply rented it out. It is more difficult for an ordinary private owner of a single aircraft, living in the EU. An operating company in that case will be obviously contrived. Which is not to say it won't stand up; loads of schemes which are merely avoidance schemes do stand up. Only in specific cases are they set aside (HMRC have established some of those).
I am convinced that this stuff was put together by amateur lawyers in some EASA committee, without proper legal advice from people who actually know aviation. The wording they use has no precedent in aviation, it would create havoc not just around the EU but internationally, it will make the EU a laughing stock of the world's richest people (who all fly in nice planes) and there is no framework for policing such a nebulous concept as an non EU resident operator.
EASA is not really an aviation organisation; it's a gravy train which employs a lot of clever people (because they get paid so much) but they are out of touch and are running private agendas which in this case is an envy-driven anti-American one.
Obviously if I have any good workaround ideas I won't be writing about them
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I had a good read, and understood about 1% of that!
So, here's two questions, if anybody fancies taking a punt at answering.
1. After 8/4/2012, are all new licenses issued going to be EASA, or will they continue to issue NPPL until 8/4/2014 (or was it 2015)?
2. At present, there is a conversion path from NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA). Will that disappear after 2012, 2014, 2015, or what? I seem to recall reading something about NPPL(M) will only count as minimal contribution towards the new EASA PPL, but what about the EASA LAPL?
I'm learning to fly a fixed wing microlight now, and that is what I am most interested in right now. However, I was thinking that some time in the future, it might be fun to convert that to an NPPL(SSEA). Is that going to be barred to me after April 2012? If so, I better get my skates on!
Ta...IPZ
So, here's two questions, if anybody fancies taking a punt at answering.
1. After 8/4/2012, are all new licenses issued going to be EASA, or will they continue to issue NPPL until 8/4/2014 (or was it 2015)?
2. At present, there is a conversion path from NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA). Will that disappear after 2012, 2014, 2015, or what? I seem to recall reading something about NPPL(M) will only count as minimal contribution towards the new EASA PPL, but what about the EASA LAPL?
I'm learning to fly a fixed wing microlight now, and that is what I am most interested in right now. However, I was thinking that some time in the future, it might be fun to convert that to an NPPL(SSEA). Is that going to be barred to me after April 2012? If so, I better get my skates on!
Ta...IPZ
After 8/4/2012, are all new licenses issued going to be EASA
At present, there is a conversion path from NPPL(M) to NPPL(SSEA). Will that disappear after....
what about the EASA LAPL?
Your JAA ATPL will not be an EASA compliant licence
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Billie Bob and Beagle seem to know what is actually happening.
I've had enough of it for now,my JAA PPL licence expires in a couple of months,and I've applied for a NPPL ,forms and cheque gone,and await the shiny new licence.
If I find I can't fly because of new rules which exclude me,I have a cunning plan.
Line dancing
I've had enough of it for now,my JAA PPL licence expires in a couple of months,and I've applied for a NPPL ,forms and cheque gone,and await the shiny new licence.
If I find I can't fly because of new rules which exclude me,I have a cunning plan.
Line dancing
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BillieBob, That's great. Thanks so much. Still sounds like if I do get my NPPL(M) early enough, its still worth looking at doing the conversion before 2012, but it doesn't seem to be that its completely closed to me.
Really appreciate the help.
TA. IPZ
Really appreciate the help.
TA. IPZ
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It is astonishing that after years of effort in trying to harmonise FCL across the EU, the CAA now has to reactivate the issue of national licences and duplicate things more than they ever were.
And how much is this all going to cost, I ask, and for what?
And how much is this all going to cost, I ask, and for what?
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I don't think the CAA wants to kick out the N-reg community.
Firstly they would be kicking out the best quality end of GA. This will impact the whole industry, all the way to maintenance companies losing their best funded customers.
Secondly they are going to get sued by various professional pilots for loss of income caused by the demolition of a very long established operating regime.
But I expect the CAA (and others) to keep its powder dry till it's needed. EASA/EU is a bunch of clever b*stards; they've had 50 years of practice of dishonest wheeling and dealing under the table.
Firstly they would be kicking out the best quality end of GA. This will impact the whole industry, all the way to maintenance companies losing their best funded customers.
Secondly they are going to get sued by various professional pilots for loss of income caused by the demolition of a very long established operating regime.
But I expect the CAA (and others) to keep its powder dry till it's needed. EASA/EU is a bunch of clever b*stards; they've had 50 years of practice of dishonest wheeling and dealing under the table.
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Phew!
I just read the original link; much like others, I have now turned to alcohol to ease my headache!
I was going to pose questions, but they've already been answered, so I just wanted to thank BillieBob & Beagle for what appears to be a huge font of EASA knowledge!
Thanks,
WH
I was going to pose questions, but they've already been answered, so I just wanted to thank BillieBob & Beagle for what appears to be a huge font of EASA knowledge!
Thanks,
WH
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Quite where this leaves someone with an FAA IR flying an N Reg Cirrus operated by someone resident in or established in the EU is a bit of a mystery. The situation is not uncommon.
The state you are registered in may choose to apply a 'derogation' which pushes back the requirement from April 2012 to April 2014. I guess this is likely but not certain for most countries.
In the interval between April 2012 and April 2014, EASA and the USA may sign a Bilateral Agreement for mutual licence acceptance. I wouldn't rate the chances of that very highly...
You could depend upon some lobbying, or lawsuits, or 'havoc' in the busines jet community changing this. However, this has been written about for years and the total result of the lobbying has been the 2 year derogation and the threat of lawsuits and 'havoc' has been zilch. You could depend on some avoidance of the concept of being an Operator resident in the EU. IMHO, the lawsuits/havoc/avoiding the Operator definition have close to zero chance of being effective. The 2 year derogation looks likely. The Bilateral treaty is an unknown, at best I'd guess a 50% chance of something meaningful in the next few years - but I would not expect that to mean "zero" requirements to do some EASA training or testing.
It's down to you. If "likely" is good enough, then wait and see. If not, I'd get on with an FAA to JAA IR conversion. There is a year to go to 2012, and in my experience, whilst the conversion could be done in weeks, just the exams could take 6-12months if you are fitting in with full time work and family life. This is not trying to scare anyone - I think a derogation is likely. But, if you want certainty, you will not get it other than by doing a conversion now.
In the CAT case, they will have to exempt them all anyway if they hold an AOC, otherwise a Continental 747 won't be allowed to land at Heathrow
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Move your @rses into gear and send emails...
Well, if AOPA etcetera have failed to generate a European wide revolt, we only have ourselves to blame, we ARE after all the community....
The CAA, motivated by the prospect of generating some more fee income and hiring some extra legal staff to convert legislation, is presenting this as a done deal. It is NOT. Write to your MEP's TODAY, exposing the Aviation Safety Unit of the Commission, EASA and your CAA representatives at the EASA commitee for the anti-democratic weasels that they are.
You can find sufficient materials in EASA N-reg thread in this forum. Focus on the economic impact, likely lawsuits, deviations from the EASA mandate, overall intransparency of the process.
The next transport committee of the European Parliament is next Monday, where the topic is likely to be on the agenda.
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I wonder what the possibility is of the current seven JAA IR exams being void if/when EASA brings in this crap, if you haven't done the IR checkride by then?
A friend of mine is a commercial (bizjet) pilot (non UK) who is having to re-do all 14 ATP exams. He had a national ATPL but they have decided it is no longer good enough and they refused to grandfather it.
A friend of mine is a commercial (bizjet) pilot (non UK) who is having to re-do all 14 ATP exams. He had a national ATPL but they have decided it is no longer good enough and they refused to grandfather it.