What propeller to go for with Rotax 912S
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What propeller to go for with Rotax 912S
Hello fellow people with wings,
I´m in a bit of a bind…….I´m presently kitting out my (brand spanking) LSA, and I´m planning to go with Rotax 912S (100 Hp, non Turbo) and I decided to buy an Ivoprop Inflight Adjustable to go with it.
The million dollar question is:
Do I go for the smaller Ultralight model or the bigger Medium prop???
For reference with regards to the differences between the two:
IVOPROP Selection Guide
They would both work okay as the Ultralight is UP TO 100HP and the Medium is from 100HP.
But I know there will be a performance difference as the size difference is quite substantial…….so I´d like to call upon those in the know:
Any experience with this in flight adjustable arrangement in combination with the Rotax 912S (100HP, non-Turbo)………………?????
Which one would be favorable for me, bearing in mind that some of my flying will be in the Andes! (but the majority at sea level).
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
I´m in a bit of a bind…….I´m presently kitting out my (brand spanking) LSA, and I´m planning to go with Rotax 912S (100 Hp, non Turbo) and I decided to buy an Ivoprop Inflight Adjustable to go with it.
The million dollar question is:
Do I go for the smaller Ultralight model or the bigger Medium prop???
For reference with regards to the differences between the two:
IVOPROP Selection Guide
They would both work okay as the Ultralight is UP TO 100HP and the Medium is from 100HP.
But I know there will be a performance difference as the size difference is quite substantial…….so I´d like to call upon those in the know:
Any experience with this in flight adjustable arrangement in combination with the Rotax 912S (100HP, non-Turbo)………………?????
Which one would be favorable for me, bearing in mind that some of my flying will be in the Andes! (but the majority at sea level).
Cheers,
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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It might be worth sending an email to Brooklands Engineering:
Sywell Aerodrome - Brooklands Engineering
They look after a fleet of AT-3's which use that engine. I believe the props are meant to adjust themselves in flight. They may be able to tell you whats fitted, and whether they would recommend going bigger or smaller. Whatever we have fitted seems to work quite well.
If you're flying in the Andes your engine is likely to develop somewhat less that 100 Hp due to the altitude. So my gut feeling would be to go for the smaller prop.
Sywell Aerodrome - Brooklands Engineering
They look after a fleet of AT-3's which use that engine. I believe the props are meant to adjust themselves in flight. They may be able to tell you whats fitted, and whether they would recommend going bigger or smaller. Whatever we have fitted seems to work quite well.
If you're flying in the Andes your engine is likely to develop somewhat less that 100 Hp due to the altitude. So my gut feeling would be to go for the smaller prop.
We have a group of several hundred flying a pusher with Rotax engines of all three variations, 912UL, 912S and 914.
We are mainly split with Ivo and Warp Drive together with some others. A fair few have a two blader made by our aircraft manufacturer but I'd say Ivo was probably the most popular.
You might get more drive out of a medium (That's what I have) but the mini will have less inertia and that is quite critical with Rotaxs. Also you need to consider clearance. Very few of us have in flight adjustables, mostly not worth the weight and complication on a light plane with limited speed anyway. It might just make some sort of sense in particular circumstances but we set the ground adjustable for our most critical phase of flight and just accept the slight degradation of performance in all the other circumstances.
We are mainly split with Ivo and Warp Drive together with some others. A fair few have a two blader made by our aircraft manufacturer but I'd say Ivo was probably the most popular.
You might get more drive out of a medium (That's what I have) but the mini will have less inertia and that is quite critical with Rotaxs. Also you need to consider clearance. Very few of us have in flight adjustables, mostly not worth the weight and complication on a light plane with limited speed anyway. It might just make some sort of sense in particular circumstances but we set the ground adjustable for our most critical phase of flight and just accept the slight degradation of performance in all the other circumstances.
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It seems to me that your choice is quite simple. You just have to look at the weight difference between the Ultralight and Medium:
2 blade 7.5 lbs vs 15.7 lbs
3 blade 9.5 lbs vs 19.2 lbs
Add to that the fact that the 912S can only produce 100HP at 5800 RPM for a maxium of 5 minutes and it is a no brainer.
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.co...perf912uls.pdf
2 blade 7.5 lbs vs 15.7 lbs
3 blade 9.5 lbs vs 19.2 lbs
Add to that the fact that the 912S can only produce 100HP at 5800 RPM for a maxium of 5 minutes and it is a no brainer.
http://www.rotax-aircraft-engines.co...perf912uls.pdf
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Originally Posted by ChrisVJ
also consider clearance
Originally Posted by ChrisVJ
more drive out of a Medium (that´s what I have)
Originally Posted by Patowalker
a no brainer
Speaking to Ivoprop, they have some major arguments to go for the Medium:
I quote:
#######################################
meDium vs. Ultralight 912S
If you use the Ultralight (3.5 inch cord) 3 blade model there will be prop
stall where you will need to get some forward speed before adding all the power.
This will not happen with the meDium (4.5 inch cord) 3 blade.
You can do a full static run up without prop stall.
There is a hard start up and shut down associated with these engines.
The meDium blades are stronger and less flexible to absorb these forces.
meDium 5.5 inch diameter hub has a stronger grip on the blades than the little
Ultalight 4 inch hub.
meDium was originally designed for engines around 100 hp.
The Ultrlight was designed for up to 100 hp with 50-65 hp engines in mind.
Electric adjust meDium lead screw is a heavy ACHME thread like the Magnum
where the Ultralight is a small screw with a fine thread because it has to go through
such a small hole.
With the added blade area the meDium has a shorter take off run and is better
for flying at high altitude.
With any 3 blade Ivoprop if you break a blade you can put it into a 2 blade to get
yourself home. If you don't have the blade blocks for 2 blade operation just use 4 bolts.
You will be much better off with 2 meDium blades than with 2 Ultralight blades.
#####################################
Any feedback on that?
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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Any feedback on that?
I had the mechanically operated Woodcomp Varia on my Zenair CH601UL and it worked very well. IN FLIGHT MECHANICAL ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE VARIA 170/2/R - WOODCOMP
You asked someone else the question, but I will butt in and say that clearance refers to the space between the tip of the prop and the ground, determined by prop diameter.
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I use an Arplast PV50 with a CSC-1 controller. I am very pleased with the results after upgrading from a fixed ground adjustable. I gained significant improvements in t/o performance, RofC and cruse speed. If your machine has a good speed range then a “CS” prop is a good solution.
Rod1
Rod1
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The Medium costs double prize, though………….could this be a motivation too, from this manufacturer?
I had the mechanically operated Woodcomp Varia on my Zenair CH601UL and it worked very well. IN FLIGHT MECHANICAL ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE VARIA 170/2/R - WOODCOMP
I appreciate your help Patowalker………I get mixed signals from different sources of information………I feel that this is an important decision for me to make, in order to have Maximum performance for all stages of the flight--> whether it be at sea level or in the Andes, whether it´s taking off from a short dirt runway or cruising with max airspeed!
I was thinking about the clearance between the hub and the cowling etc--> okay, I´m fine for that……….my aircraft is quite high up on its wheels--> no problem there!!
I use an Arplast PV50 with a CSC-1 controller. I am very pleased with the results after upgrading from a fixed ground adjustable. I gained significant improvements in t/o performance, RofC and cruse speed. If your machine has a good speed range then a “CS” prop is a good solution.
###Ultra long Hauler###
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From memory the PV50 prop is about 4000 Euro and the CSC-1 is around £300. The ground adjustable Ecoprop is around 1700 Euro. Both are popular in Europe on the Rotax 100hp.
Rod1
Rod1
I was going to suggest taking a look at the New-Zealand-made in-flight adjustable that was recommended with the Europa, but they are recommending a Warp now on their website. What happened to the kiwi prop? It looked a nice product to me, and very good value for money.
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ULH,
I don't know the present price of the Varia, but you might like to contact Woodcomp.
Even though I was pleased with the Varia on the Zenair, when I built my SportCruiser I decided to go for this ground adjustable prop.
ON GROUND ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE KLASSIC 170 - WOODCOMP
It just seemed to me that the added weight and cost of a VP prop was not worth the difference in performance that they can make on an LSA.
I would check out what prop Aero Andina and Can-Zac fit to their ready to fly aircraft, as they would have tested various models before settling on the best compromise between performance and price for that airframe/engine combination.
American props will probably be considerably cheaper than European ones for you.
My flying in Ecuador has been mostly in hang-gliders launching off Pichincha and as a pax in TAME Caravelles on the UIO/GYE route. If it was raining in Quito, they deployed a parachute to assist braking on the wet runway.
I don't know the present price of the Varia, but you might like to contact Woodcomp.
Even though I was pleased with the Varia on the Zenair, when I built my SportCruiser I decided to go for this ground adjustable prop.
ON GROUND ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE KLASSIC 170 - WOODCOMP
It just seemed to me that the added weight and cost of a VP prop was not worth the difference in performance that they can make on an LSA.
I would check out what prop Aero Andina and Can-Zac fit to their ready to fly aircraft, as they would have tested various models before settling on the best compromise between performance and price for that airframe/engine combination.
American props will probably be considerably cheaper than European ones for you.
My flying in Ecuador has been mostly in hang-gliders launching off Pichincha and as a pax in TAME Caravelles on the UIO/GYE route. If it was raining in Quito, they deployed a parachute to assist braking on the wet runway.
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Still in a bind………..
Those are Dolares Americanos.
Any arguments why the PV50 would beat the Ivoprop………perhaps?
I´m looking for in flight adjustable……..because of the great variety of altitudes we fly (land & take off) in one single trip.
ULH,
I would check out what prop Aero Andina and Can-Zac fit to their ready to fly aircraft, as they would have tested various models before settling on the best compromise between performance and price for that airframe/engine combination.
American props will probably be considerably cheaper than European ones for you.
I would check out what prop Aero Andina and Can-Zac fit to their ready to fly aircraft, as they would have tested various models before settling on the best compromise between performance and price for that airframe/engine combination.
American props will probably be considerably cheaper than European ones for you.
Will keep you posted.
Oh and bu the way: prize wise the "Gringo props" seem the ones to go for, fully agree with ya!
Can-Zac is quiet……………they haven´t emerged from periscope depth just yet.
I´ll keep trying to contact them.
ULH,
I don't know the present price of the Varia, but you might like to contact Woodcomp.
Even though I was pleased with the Varia on the Zenair, when I built my SportCruiser I decided to go for this ground adjustable prop.
ON GROUND ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE KLASSIC 170 - WOODCOMP
It just seemed to me that the added weight and cost of a VP prop was not worth the difference in performance that they can make on an LSA.
I don't know the present price of the Varia, but you might like to contact Woodcomp.
Even though I was pleased with the Varia on the Zenair, when I built my SportCruiser I decided to go for this ground adjustable prop.
ON GROUND ADJUSTABLE PROPELLER ? TYPE KLASSIC 170 - WOODCOMP
It just seemed to me that the added weight and cost of a VP prop was not worth the difference in performance that they can make on an LSA.
Where you fly, I guess it´s not like that.
I guess it´s all about having the right tool for a specific job.
Deploying a Parachute at UIO will hopefully be in the past with the new airport in……..??????? Hopefully 2012???????
The longest runway in Latin America, I think--> still high up though!
I really appreciate your feedback everybody……….you all seem to know a lot more than I do, so please keep it coming!!!
###Ultra Long Hauler###
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I was going to suggest taking a look at the New-Zealand-made in-flight adjustable that was recommended with the Europa, but they are recommending a Warp now on their website. What happened to the kiwi prop? It looked a nice product to me, and very good value for money.
When you install the airmaster, you are essentially replacing the hub with one that's electrically adjustable, but retain the blades. (Although I think an extra groove or something needs to be machined in the blade roots.)
High Performance Light Aircraft Propeller Systems|Airmaster Propellers
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I´m presently clearing some misunderstandings with Aerobravo about legal limits with regards to LSA etc……..hopefully this will yield something.
Will keep you posted.
Will keep you posted.
Whatever prop you choose, I think you will find it difficult to reach your speed limit of 120kts in level flight.
Thanks for keeping us posted.
Whatever prop you choose, I think you will find it difficult to reach your speed limit of 120kts in level flight.
I then changed to an Idrovario Medium prop - the fuel burn at a 120kt cruise hasn't changed despite a lower rpm (though I can now cruise at 135kts if required albeit at a higher fuel burn), but the takeoff/climb performance is hugely improved.
The engine/prop combination worked very well when operating hot & high in Morocco, Spain etc. It should suit Ecuador.
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You are comparing apples and pears. The Pioneer is a lot sleeker than the Patriot. The manufacturer only claims a top speed of 108kts, and even if that is with a fixed pitch prop, it is highly unlikely that much more can be delivered by a VP.
Unless I missed it, the a/c type is not quoted in any of ULH's posts. However I would agree with you Pat that you are unlikely to exceed manufacturers' stated cruise speeds regardless of prop fitted.
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I used to have a fixed pitch prop on my 912ULS-powered Pioneer 300 and happily cruised at 120Kt.
I then changed to an Idrovario Medium prop - the fuel burn at a 120kt cruise hasn't changed despite a lower rpm (though I can now cruise at 135kts if required albeit at a higher fuel burn), but the takeoff/climb performance is hugely improved.
The engine/prop combination worked very well when operating hot & high in Morocco, Spain etc. It should suit Ecuador.
I then changed to an Idrovario Medium prop - the fuel burn at a 120kt cruise hasn't changed despite a lower rpm (though I can now cruise at 135kts if required albeit at a higher fuel burn), but the takeoff/climb performance is hugely improved.
The engine/prop combination worked very well when operating hot & high in Morocco, Spain etc. It should suit Ecuador.
Cool plane, that Pioneer 300………..I googled it.
I need a high wing aircraft though, because of the poor quality of airstrips we use!
For clarification: Mine is indeed a MXP 150 Patriot!
Patriot
Aero patriot Industria Aeronáutica
This is mine at present:
With the Dynon Skyview installed, it must be a dream to fly!!
I doubt if I will exceed manufacturer´s numbers, however I feel that there could be a big difference between the 2 props.
Mariner 9 experienced quite a big improvement………….
Correct!!
Thanks again………….keep it coming!!
###Ultra Long Hauler###
Last edited by Ultra long hauler; 29th Mar 2011 at 23:53.
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Quick update
For those who are interested:
I did not get any reply from any of the companies I approached, so I followed my gut feeling, checked with my bank manager; and decided to go for the Medium size Ivoprop.
In flight adjustable, that is.
I hope to keep you folks updated, though it will be a while before I will have the Rotax and Dynon Skyview installed.
Now looking for a chrome 11" spinner……..
Best regards,
###Ultra long Hauler###
I did not get any reply from any of the companies I approached, so I followed my gut feeling, checked with my bank manager; and decided to go for the Medium size Ivoprop.
In flight adjustable, that is.
I hope to keep you folks updated, though it will be a while before I will have the Rotax and Dynon Skyview installed.
Now looking for a chrome 11" spinner……..
Best regards,
###Ultra long Hauler###
