Over the sea, new PPL
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Well to add to the collected wisdom having landed at Lundy you wouldnt catch me doing it in a 28 - far to exciting for me.
No, fly the centre line at 100 feet or touch a wheel and then off to Peranporth for a celebration landing and a walk along the cliffs. You will be glad you did.
No, fly the centre line at 100 feet or touch a wheel and then off to Peranporth for a celebration landing and a walk along the cliffs. You will be glad you did.
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Grass 400M in a PA28????? 
only if it was rolled flat and cut like a Golf Course. Whats your weights X2 pax and half fuel? what if is wet, your braking distance are going to be alot more! Even in a 180 thats going to be a very marginal take off.
Sounds like you are a new PPL (like me) i wouldn't do it, not even with an instructor...
Practice your Coastal reversals, use minimum rate turns, use navaids (VOR+DME) or a good GPS.
Remember you need to wear life jackets and if you a 50NM off shore it has to be Life jackets plus a raft, check your ELT :-)
good luck.
only if it was rolled flat and cut like a Golf Course. Whats your weights X2 pax and half fuel? what if is wet, your braking distance are going to be alot more! Even in a 180 thats going to be a very marginal take off.Sounds like you are a new PPL (like me) i wouldn't do it, not even with an instructor...
Practice your Coastal reversals, use minimum rate turns, use navaids (VOR+DME) or a good GPS.
Remember you need to wear life jackets and if you a 50NM off shore it has to be Life jackets plus a raft, check your ELT :-)
good luck.
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Lundy or Bust ?
I'm with Fuji Abound on this one. Perranporth looks a better option.
A short strip in Winter, after rain, on an island, possible haze, I can see the holes in the cheese lining up.
I would at least wait until Summer before going there. Plenty of other challenges for you but I would not attempt it in a PA28. Check your POH and read a few more AAIB reports.
Air Accidents Investigation: Bulletins
They will sober you up.
A short strip in Winter, after rain, on an island, possible haze, I can see the holes in the cheese lining up.
I would at least wait until Summer before going there. Plenty of other challenges for you but I would not attempt it in a PA28. Check your POH and read a few more AAIB reports.
Air Accidents Investigation: Bulletins
They will sober you up.
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A liferaft or dry suite is the only guarantee of survival time in the water.
When I cross the water I always find it reassuring to keep a look out for the ships below (a bit like always keeping an eye out for an open field over land). Probably wouldn't do much good but I think it gives me a better chance of getting scooped from the drink (assuming one landed parallel to the ship not in front!)
Does anyone know if a Mayday made over the air would ever be relayed to nearby vessels or is that wishful thinking?
You will find that the Pa28 is not on any list of planes which are considered STOL. Then re-read the section which says, "only suitable for pilots who are current with short field flying in STOL aircraft". That should be a fairly decisive factor in your thinking about go/no go.
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Most of my time has been in PA28's, and I wouldn't do 400 meters of grass, even if it was billiard table smooth.
Rough, grass, up and down, no way.
As others have said landing won't be your problem. Taking off will be a major issue.
You said that you've done the calculations. Have you calculated it for grass? Neither of the PA28 that I fly have a grass take off table in the POH. Are you sure that you haven't calculated it based on a hard level surface?
Flying over the water will be the least of your worries on this trip.
If you really want to do an island, then go to the Isle of Mann. If you want a smaller island, then head north to the west coast of Scotland. The terrain and weather up there will provide it's own challenges, and it's a bit further, but the runways are hard, and the sceney spectacular.
dp
Rough, grass, up and down, no way.
As others have said landing won't be your problem. Taking off will be a major issue.
You said that you've done the calculations. Have you calculated it for grass? Neither of the PA28 that I fly have a grass take off table in the POH. Are you sure that you haven't calculated it based on a hard level surface?
Flying over the water will be the least of your worries on this trip.
If you really want to do an island, then go to the Isle of Mann. If you want a smaller island, then head north to the west coast of Scotland. The terrain and weather up there will provide it's own challenges, and it's a bit further, but the runways are hard, and the sceney spectacular.
dp
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Dp
Not being picky for its own sake but I am not sure you are correct.
It may not be a problem for some, but for others it could be a big problem.
Having done it (not in a PA28) Lundy presents its own unique problems that many (most) may not have encountered before. No wind sock, a saddleback strip, probably no information on its state, or condition, both difficult to assess from the air etc. A little float, some inaccuracy in the landing, the grass longer than you thought, the ground wetter - they are all very good reasons why even the landing could be a big problem.
No disrespect to the OP but unless you have experience of doing this sort of thing Lundy is not the place to start and if you have the experience you will know this stuff anyway.
As others have said landing won't be your problem.
It may not be a problem for some, but for others it could be a big problem.
Having done it (not in a PA28) Lundy presents its own unique problems that many (most) may not have encountered before. No wind sock, a saddleback strip, probably no information on its state, or condition, both difficult to assess from the air etc. A little float, some inaccuracy in the landing, the grass longer than you thought, the ground wetter - they are all very good reasons why even the landing could be a big problem.
No disrespect to the OP but unless you have experience of doing this sort of thing Lundy is not the place to start and if you have the experience you will know this stuff anyway.
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working out the landing distances it's well within Lundy's 400m
Not been to Lundy but apparently there are lots of rabbit holes to avoid. I'd be very careful in a PA28, that is for sure.
I'd take our Rallye in no problem, with 2 POB and half tanks just to be sure
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To give some practical advice there are plenty of short strips around.
For anyone who has not done this before (and with a southern England) bias I would start by going to somewhere like Maypole. See how that goes, make careful note of how much of the strip you use and be very critical of where you touch down and what your actual landing roll is. Try it in carm conditions and with a reasonable cross wind - you are achieving much less by landing into a reasonable headwind, because the headwind might not always be present. If that goes OK maybe book a flight into Deanland which is a little shorter. After that try a few other farm strips particularly those on the side of a hill, or in valley, more challenging approaches etc. I think that is the sort of background experience you really need to go somewhere like Lundy. It is relatively easy to gain safely, and once gained gives you a far better idea about your own limits and the limits of your aircraft.
For anyone who has not done this before (and with a southern England) bias I would start by going to somewhere like Maypole. See how that goes, make careful note of how much of the strip you use and be very critical of where you touch down and what your actual landing roll is. Try it in carm conditions and with a reasonable cross wind - you are achieving much less by landing into a reasonable headwind, because the headwind might not always be present. If that goes OK maybe book a flight into Deanland which is a little shorter. After that try a few other farm strips particularly those on the side of a hill, or in valley, more challenging approaches etc. I think that is the sort of background experience you really need to go somewhere like Lundy. It is relatively easy to gain safely, and once gained gives you a far better idea about your own limits and the limits of your aircraft.
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Agree 100% with FujiAbound
Down here we have a lot of strips all worth visiting - some easier than others, but we can at least work up to our and the aircraft limits.
I came out of Truro once and discovered how slope, long grass and nil wind makes a mockery of your calcs.
That is one worth visiting, but for me, only with a stiff wind down the runway and lightly loaded once the strip is mown.
Down here we have a lot of strips all worth visiting - some easier than others, but we can at least work up to our and the aircraft limits.
I came out of Truro once and discovered how slope, long grass and nil wind makes a mockery of your calcs.
That is one worth visiting, but for me, only with a stiff wind down the runway and lightly loaded once the strip is mown.
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Ryan5252
A mayday call on 121.5 will not be picked by any marine craft unless a lifeboat happened to be homing onto an EPIRB at the time. The only way it would be relayed would be via D&D and then the Coastguard. Your best option is to ditch close alongside.
Spacemonkeys
Ten out ten for coming on here for advice. Just watch out that your enthusiasm doesn't lead you out beyond your training and experience.
Safe flying
A mayday call on 121.5 will not be picked by any marine craft unless a lifeboat happened to be homing onto an EPIRB at the time. The only way it would be relayed would be via D&D and then the Coastguard. Your best option is to ditch close alongside.
Spacemonkeys
Ten out ten for coming on here for advice. Just watch out that your enthusiasm doesn't lead you out beyond your training and experience.
Safe flying
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(2) Monitor the AI and altimeter, because you'll find that you lose visual references very quickly
When flying over sea at any reasonable height (say 4000' or above), the horizon may be farther away than the in-flight visibility, even in CAVOK weather. This means that the blue-grey of the sea seamlessly melts into the grey-blue of the sky, leaving you with no discernable horizon whatsoever.
There's only two ways you can find out if the aircraft is still upright:
1. Look directly below you, at shipping, buoys and whatnot. Or behind you if possible.
2. Use the instruments. (And turn the autopilot on if you have one.)
As a fresh PPL with no overwater experience and no IMC/IR this can be very confusing, and even dangerous if you're not prepared for it. So think about your plan and if you do feel uncomfortable when you coast out, turn back immediately before you lose the plot. There's land behind you with a good horizon.
If you want to make the flight anyway, you now have a trade-off to make. By flying lower, the visible horizon is closer and may well be closer than the in-flight visibility. That means that at 1000' or 2000' you may well be able to see the horizon and keep the plane level. But of course flying lower gives you less time and less options in case of engine trouble.
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Backpacker
I have had the leans on a few occasions. More often than not it has been over the sea. Unless you have had this experience I dont think you appreciate how easily it happens. Being over the sea is so often typified by false horizons, which are often blurred, and fuse together. This can mean there are multiple horizons above the true horizon which you cant even see.
I little game I like playing is to hand fly looking out the screen and monitor how it is going by an occasional glance at the instruments - and sometimes it is going reasonably pear shaped! It is also for me at least a very good way to get a dose of the leans as you come on to instruments which are telling you something different from the grey picture up front that you were struggling to work with.
For me it is a sure way for someone not comfortable or not having seen these conditions before to quickly get themselves into real problems - in fact I am surprised more dont.
I also agree with you - if all else fails go low. Yes it is not where you want to be if the donk quits but I think you have bigger worries if you are struggling to fly level without the instrument skills or perhaps the kit in the aircraft. I have crossed the channel at 500 feet in bad weather and its OK. Yes you dont want to plan on doing so and fog could really ruin your day, but it is also an option not to disregard if circumstances must.
I reckon pilots should do more low level flying. I find people are very uncomfortable low level but if needs must (and I am not suggesting ever setting out with the intent) it can be your salvation. Short of fog and the wrong terrain there arent many days when creeping around beneath the overcast will not at least get you down safely, even if it ends up being in a field, far better than losing control in IMC.
I have had the leans on a few occasions. More often than not it has been over the sea. Unless you have had this experience I dont think you appreciate how easily it happens. Being over the sea is so often typified by false horizons, which are often blurred, and fuse together. This can mean there are multiple horizons above the true horizon which you cant even see.
I little game I like playing is to hand fly looking out the screen and monitor how it is going by an occasional glance at the instruments - and sometimes it is going reasonably pear shaped! It is also for me at least a very good way to get a dose of the leans as you come on to instruments which are telling you something different from the grey picture up front that you were struggling to work with.
For me it is a sure way for someone not comfortable or not having seen these conditions before to quickly get themselves into real problems - in fact I am surprised more dont.
I also agree with you - if all else fails go low. Yes it is not where you want to be if the donk quits but I think you have bigger worries if you are struggling to fly level without the instrument skills or perhaps the kit in the aircraft. I have crossed the channel at 500 feet in bad weather and its OK. Yes you dont want to plan on doing so and fog could really ruin your day, but it is also an option not to disregard if circumstances must.
I reckon pilots should do more low level flying. I find people are very uncomfortable low level but if needs must (and I am not suggesting ever setting out with the intent) it can be your salvation. Short of fog and the wrong terrain there arent many days when creeping around beneath the overcast will not at least get you down safely, even if it ends up being in a field, far better than losing control in IMC.
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Well good folks of PPrune I think you may well have saved not just the aeroplanes life but mine also, for the record I had worked out using the 25 flap on tarmac and not factored in any grass. A kick up the backside to get the books out again but in my defence I was only in the very early stage of a plan.
Happy flying and maybe i'll bump into some of you at them airfields with long runways.
Cheers Tom
Happy flying and maybe i'll bump into some of you at them airfields with long runways.
Cheers Tom
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A mayday call on 121.5 will not be picked by any marine craft unless a lifeboat happened to be homing onto an EPIRB at the time
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Spacemonkeys - if you want to get some practice on an airfield which is short, but new to you, Derby could be worth a visit. You'll get a friendly welcome, plus it will exercise your skills.
Also it's a lot closer than some that have been mentioned.
Also it's a lot closer than some that have been mentioned.
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Haze is could be a big problem if there is a bit of sun about as you will find viz layers even if there is no cloud reported at the same altitude, i did a flight from NZOM to NZPP and the CL was BKN 4000 Viz 40km but there was a nice haze layer at around 2200.
That haze layer blocked the viz in front but not directly below me. because i'm a bit of a geek i had the nav aids (Tory VOR and PP NDB) dialed in so i continued above the layer and knew were i was with some degree of accuracy. NOTE i was NOT in IMC as i had visual contact with the ground at all times.
Airspace is 2500 and 5000 depending on where you are in the straits so i elect to fly just under, giving me enough time and the height (for transmission) to get out a mayday call. they could get a chopper to me in 30 mins if the call is recieved (and i may even know the winch man! small place NZ). something to think about when scud running under cloud along the coast.
That haze layer blocked the viz in front but not directly below me. because i'm a bit of a geek i had the nav aids (Tory VOR and PP NDB) dialed in so i continued above the layer and knew were i was with some degree of accuracy. NOTE i was NOT in IMC as i had visual contact with the ground at all times.
Airspace is 2500 and 5000 depending on where you are in the straits so i elect to fly just under, giving me enough time and the height (for transmission) to get out a mayday call. they could get a chopper to me in 30 mins if the call is recieved (and i may even know the winch man! small place NZ). something to think about when scud running under cloud along the coast.
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NZOM RWY 07/25 is 690 with vineyards and a hospital/cemetary (handy) at either ends. At the end of my first Xcountry i had to land an Archer on this runway, i wasn't sure it could do it so i dragged it in and landed close to 'The spot'... was surprised at where i stopped. still wouldn't try 400. no way, not on take off even after standing on the brakes.
