Flying SE across Europe IFR v VFR
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Flying SE across Europe IFR v VFR
Hi
I am working in Germany during the week and looking to get to London or Dublin at weekends. I'm wondering is it worth spending alot extra on IFR airways costs etc.
To get a decent IRF equipped aircraft you have to pay alot extra for a Dry lease per Hour typically €150-170 per hour in Germany. But I can get a descent arrow IV VFR equipped for alot less.
I'm thinking if your flying a single are you not better off to go VFR for the safety aspect of it?
Anyone with any experiences or views out there let me know.
I am working in Germany during the week and looking to get to London or Dublin at weekends. I'm wondering is it worth spending alot extra on IFR airways costs etc.
To get a decent IRF equipped aircraft you have to pay alot extra for a Dry lease per Hour typically €150-170 per hour in Germany. But I can get a descent arrow IV VFR equipped for alot less.
I'm thinking if your flying a single are you not better off to go VFR for the safety aspect of it?
Anyone with any experiences or views out there let me know.
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Fly commercial. Cheapest and the best dispatch rates.
Yes, IFR has a better dispatch rate (chance that the flight will go as planned) than VFR, but as you found out, it's a lot more expensive, both in terms of education/currency and airplane capability.
And then still there's a limit to what your typical basic-IFR-equipped SEP can do. If you want to improve your dispatch rate ever further you've got to look at MEP, SET or even type-rated aircraft types, advanced autopilots, pressurization or with oxygen to get above the weather, FIKI, stormscope, weather download and so forth. Those aircraft cannot be rented, typically. You need to be a (part) owner.
But all that might be needed if you want to fly to London or Dublin for the weekend, to visit family or whatever. Just consider the consequence of not showing up at work on Monday, because there happened to be a cold front in the way with turbulence, icing and whatnot, and was too severe to penetrate.
There are very few truly private aircraft pilots who can make this kind of thing work reliably. IO540 is one of them and he doesn't have a 100% dispatch rate either, despite having some serious kit and experience. I'm sure he'll chime in within a few hours.
Yes, IFR has a better dispatch rate (chance that the flight will go as planned) than VFR, but as you found out, it's a lot more expensive, both in terms of education/currency and airplane capability.
And then still there's a limit to what your typical basic-IFR-equipped SEP can do. If you want to improve your dispatch rate ever further you've got to look at MEP, SET or even type-rated aircraft types, advanced autopilots, pressurization or with oxygen to get above the weather, FIKI, stormscope, weather download and so forth. Those aircraft cannot be rented, typically. You need to be a (part) owner.
But all that might be needed if you want to fly to London or Dublin for the weekend, to visit family or whatever. Just consider the consequence of not showing up at work on Monday, because there happened to be a cold front in the way with turbulence, icing and whatnot, and was too severe to penetrate.
There are very few truly private aircraft pilots who can make this kind of thing work reliably. IO540 is one of them and he doesn't have a 100% dispatch rate either, despite having some serious kit and experience. I'm sure he'll chime in within a few hours.
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IO540 is one of them and he doesn't have a 100% dispatch rate either, despite having some serious kit and experience. I'm sure he'll chime in within a few hours.
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You have zero chance of doing this trip routinely VFR.
You have a better chance IFR but much reduced in the winter without FIKI.
Even then without weather radar and good skills you will not achieve a reliable despatch rate.
More to the point the fact you need to ask the question would suggest this is not something you should be considering.
However if you have in mind the more occasional trip as weather permits it would be more than possible.
You have a better chance IFR but much reduced in the winter without FIKI.
Even then without weather radar and good skills you will not achieve a reliable despatch rate.
More to the point the fact you need to ask the question would suggest this is not something you should be considering.
However if you have in mind the more occasional trip as weather permits it would be more than possible.
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IFR is a doddle, VFR is hard work. You'll get stopped by icing risk quite frequently, but can then default to VFR if conditions permit.
There'll be days when destination conditions prevent either.
If you are renting, rent on the basis of the weather forecast!
There'll be days when destination conditions prevent either.
If you are renting, rent on the basis of the weather forecast!
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It is a reasonable question to ask. I think a lot of people entering (or potentially entering) GA think of using it for regular business transport.
In the USA, Cirrus (SR22) and Cessna (C400) unashamedly advertise GA as a means of business transport, which is great for advancing GA so one should not complain even if it is severely stretching the truth (with those aircraft types)
The issue is really that to achieve the required despatch rate you need to collect a significant amount of qualifications and spend quite a bit of money on hardware.
I think I wrote my answer to this in a fairly recent post. I have to say I get criticised frequently for being too cautious in my appraisal of the weather (basically I will scrap a flight if the enroute portion is IMC above my operating ceiling of about 19000ft) but I don't think it is prudent to push this unless one has full de-ice (TKS won't last a trip from Germany to UK) and then what do you do about meeting up a CB? You need radar...
Germany to UK or Ireland is an easy one-leg flight for most half decent IFR touring airplanes but the weather will get in the way. Ireland in particular has a lot of atrocious frontal weather - similar to the Midlands and up in the UK.
One pilot I know did a flight a week from Bournemouth to various places Europe, for a year. He achieved a 49/50 despatch rate (mostly day trips I think, returning in the evening) with the one trip cancelled mid-flight due to a wall of thunderstorms showing on his radar (IIRC). His aircraft was a 421C which is a big heavy piston twin, with a low purchase price but high operating costs. His despatch rate also benefited hugely from Bournemouth having a 200ft ILS and useful opening hours. Most European "GA" airfields cannot be flown into substantially after dark, which is just plain stupid.
One could achieve something similar to 98% or better with a TBM700/850, but used ones start at $1.2M and new ones are $3.2M.
In the USA, Cirrus (SR22) and Cessna (C400) unashamedly advertise GA as a means of business transport, which is great for advancing GA so one should not complain even if it is severely stretching the truth (with those aircraft types)
The issue is really that to achieve the required despatch rate you need to collect a significant amount of qualifications and spend quite a bit of money on hardware.
I think I wrote my answer to this in a fairly recent post. I have to say I get criticised frequently for being too cautious in my appraisal of the weather (basically I will scrap a flight if the enroute portion is IMC above my operating ceiling of about 19000ft) but I don't think it is prudent to push this unless one has full de-ice (TKS won't last a trip from Germany to UK) and then what do you do about meeting up a CB? You need radar...
Germany to UK or Ireland is an easy one-leg flight for most half decent IFR touring airplanes but the weather will get in the way. Ireland in particular has a lot of atrocious frontal weather - similar to the Midlands and up in the UK.
One pilot I know did a flight a week from Bournemouth to various places Europe, for a year. He achieved a 49/50 despatch rate (mostly day trips I think, returning in the evening) with the one trip cancelled mid-flight due to a wall of thunderstorms showing on his radar (IIRC). His aircraft was a 421C which is a big heavy piston twin, with a low purchase price but high operating costs. His despatch rate also benefited hugely from Bournemouth having a 200ft ILS and useful opening hours. Most European "GA" airfields cannot be flown into substantially after dark, which is just plain stupid.
One could achieve something similar to 98% or better with a TBM700/850, but used ones start at $1.2M and new ones are $3.2M.
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mannios,
Having had a look at your profile, none of what has been said above comes as news, I guess. Bottom line, you won't beat the Ryan's or Lingus for despatch reliability. On the other hand, doing it your way, you can avoid the cattle mart that commercial flying has become and it'll be infinitely more craic !!
For a run from ED .. or EB.. to Ireland, IFR is way simpler and let's face it, regardless what you fly, you're in an alien environment. Risk management / mitigation is the name of the game. Where are you based at the moment?
Having had a look at your profile, none of what has been said above comes as news, I guess. Bottom line, you won't beat the Ryan's or Lingus for despatch reliability. On the other hand, doing it your way, you can avoid the cattle mart that commercial flying has become and it'll be infinitely more craic !!
For a run from ED .. or EB.. to Ireland, IFR is way simpler and let's face it, regardless what you fly, you're in an alien environment. Risk management / mitigation is the name of the game. Where are you based at the moment?
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I have a lot of multi engine piston time. My dispatch rates IFR are high.
Fog is usually the only no go area but you must have anti ice deice capability.
Even in spring autumn at the levels around 10K
You are going to be in the icing zone.
Flying a single consider engine failure as your only way is down.
Consider terrain, consider Cloudbase, consider fog, consider night.
Multi engine deiced anti iced and you will get a good dispatch rate.
4 sestet club aircraft with no deice be prepared to fly back commercial if you are time limited.
Pace
Fog is usually the only no go area but you must have anti ice deice capability.
Even in spring autumn at the levels around 10K
You are going to be in the icing zone.
Flying a single consider engine failure as your only way is down.
Consider terrain, consider Cloudbase, consider fog, consider night.
Multi engine deiced anti iced and you will get a good dispatch rate.
4 sestet club aircraft with no deice be prepared to fly back commercial if you are time limited.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 12th Feb 2011 at 14:37.
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Flying Germany to Dublin to Germany VFR can not be done with any reliability.
The weather at the Dublin end is just not conductive to reliable VFR flight planning.
Also, over that distance, I think you'll find it quicker door to door on a commerical flight (as well as a lot cheaper). You'll certainly need at least one fuel stop.
dp
The weather at the Dublin end is just not conductive to reliable VFR flight planning.
Also, over that distance, I think you'll find it quicker door to door on a commerical flight (as well as a lot cheaper). You'll certainly need at least one fuel stop.
dp
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I think the VFR despatch rate would be about 25%
Of course one could improve it greatly by illegal IFR
and even more so by taking chances flying through frontal weather.
However, the basic idea is a good one. Keep a plane in Germany and if the wx looks OK, fly back home for the weekend. You can see the MSLP charts a few days ahead which is good enough. Otherwise, take an airline. However, an IR is still really really desirable.
Of course one could improve it greatly by illegal IFR
and even more so by taking chances flying through frontal weather.However, the basic idea is a good one. Keep a plane in Germany and if the wx looks OK, fly back home for the weekend. You can see the MSLP charts a few days ahead which is good enough. Otherwise, take an airline. However, an IR is still really really desirable.
The More Important Weather Forecast is for the Return Trip
Of course, you will get all sorts of disclaimers that forecasts 2-4 days out are less reliable and yes, they are.
But you will at least get the overall synoptic picture. Once at destination keep an eye on the weather maps and satellite pictures and be prepared to either leave early or delay the return.
If you have a definite time you must be back, a refundable commercial ticket can be your backstop. It's much easier to explain your absence at a meeting or work by saying your commercial flight was canceled than saying the forecast was bad
I have had to cancel a rental because of weather and used the the backstop commercial ticket.
One evening the weather precluded a return; so I stayed an extra night at the hotel and had a fine flight back early the next morning.
On one vacation by car, I came across my then favorite rental several hundred miles from home after being chased East a few hundred miles by a warm front. The pilot had taken his GF on an excursion train and came back after the warm front had taken position over the airport. They had to take an overnight bus home to get to work even though the plane was IFR capable
But you will at least get the overall synoptic picture. Once at destination keep an eye on the weather maps and satellite pictures and be prepared to either leave early or delay the return.
If you have a definite time you must be back, a refundable commercial ticket can be your backstop. It's much easier to explain your absence at a meeting or work by saying your commercial flight was canceled than saying the forecast was bad
I have had to cancel a rental because of weather and used the the backstop commercial ticket.
One evening the weather precluded a return; so I stayed an extra night at the hotel and had a fine flight back early the next morning.
On one vacation by car, I came across my then favorite rental several hundred miles from home after being chased East a few hundred miles by a warm front. The pilot had taken his GF on an excursion train and came back after the warm front had taken position over the airport. They had to take an overnight bus home to get to work even though the plane was IFR capable
To get a decent IRF equipped aircraft you have to pay alot extra for a Dry lease per Hour typically €150-170 per hour in Germany.
