How many VFR flying days in the UK year
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How many VFR flying days in the UK year
Hi all,
So, I was sitting in my room, reading through the details of my next lesson, and doing some homework on air law, and rules around keeping current, and this thought occurred to me.
How many days in an average UK year is it actually possible to fly VFR
I suppose this is somewhat influenced (somewhat? Ha!!) by the fact that I am learning at weekends, and since December 2010, have logged a grand total of 1.7 hours. More lessons have been canceled due to bad weather than have been flown, to the extent that my instructor is starting to think I have a career in being paid to stay away from airfields (see Rob McKenna, from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, book 4).
So, with all this knowledge and experience on the forums, and me giving longing glances at adverts telling me to "Learn in southern spain, where there are over 300 flying days a year", I'd love to get your opinions.
If I had any idea how to make this a poll (I don't think you can do that on this site) I would, but in the meantime, c'mon, let me know your thoughts.
Ta. IPZ
So, I was sitting in my room, reading through the details of my next lesson, and doing some homework on air law, and rules around keeping current, and this thought occurred to me.
How many days in an average UK year is it actually possible to fly VFR
I suppose this is somewhat influenced (somewhat? Ha!!) by the fact that I am learning at weekends, and since December 2010, have logged a grand total of 1.7 hours. More lessons have been canceled due to bad weather than have been flown, to the extent that my instructor is starting to think I have a career in being paid to stay away from airfields (see Rob McKenna, from Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, book 4).
So, with all this knowledge and experience on the forums, and me giving longing glances at adverts telling me to "Learn in southern spain, where there are over 300 flying days a year", I'd love to get your opinions.
If I had any idea how to make this a poll (I don't think you can do that on this site) I would, but in the meantime, c'mon, let me know your thoughts.
Ta. IPZ
Not really an answer, but two points I remember:
-) here in Belgium, glider pilots count on an average of 50 flyable days per annum, or so I was told by one of them. Of course gliders are most demanding of all, regarding weather.
-) for PPL/LSA flying, make a distinction between flying circuits and flying over land: more than once I had planned an overland navigation exercise, only to be told by my dear instructor the weather was barely sufficient for some nice circuit training, but leaving the circuit was not a good idea.
-) here in Belgium, glider pilots count on an average of 50 flyable days per annum, or so I was told by one of them. Of course gliders are most demanding of all, regarding weather.
-) for PPL/LSA flying, make a distinction between flying circuits and flying over land: more than once I had planned an overland navigation exercise, only to be told by my dear instructor the weather was barely sufficient for some nice circuit training, but leaving the circuit was not a good idea.
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The problem for you is that you are having lessons at the weekend. There are 104 days available and you have to fit in with other students.
I've heard it estimated that there is a 60% chance of any day being affected by weather, so that brings it down to 62 days. Take a stab that you will miss around 6 weekends a year through sickness, holidays or family duties makes it 50 days.
If you take a different approach, esp once you have your licence, and make yourself available when the weather is good, then you can maximise your flying.
I went from around 15 hours per year to over 100 taking that approach, and if it wasn't for threats from the bank manager it would be a lot more.
I've heard it estimated that there is a 60% chance of any day being affected by weather, so that brings it down to 62 days. Take a stab that you will miss around 6 weekends a year through sickness, holidays or family duties makes it 50 days.
If you take a different approach, esp once you have your licence, and make yourself available when the weather is good, then you can maximise your flying.
I went from around 15 hours per year to over 100 taking that approach, and if it wasn't for threats from the bank manager it would be a lot more.
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The answer will depend on how far you want to fly, and to some extent on where you fly to.
If you could fly every day of the year, my "go" estimate would be as follows for a day trip:
- a short local flight; 75%
- a 200nm flight; 50%
- a 800nm flight; 30% (obviously you would not fly back the same day on this one)
The reason it drops is that you are more likely to encounter sub-VFR weather.
It will also drop if you want to come back the following day, because there is a high chance of a nice day being followed by a bad one.
Equally there is a high chance of a bad day being followed by a good one, and your despatch rate improves massively if you can set aside 2 or 3 consecutive days for getting away. With 3 days it will be close to 100%.
I don't think there is much difference between the summer and the winter, but in Oct/Nov it will be worse due to the constant warm fronts (rain/drizzle). In the winter you get some bad wx, but in the summer you get some very hazy days (OK if you use a GPS and are a competent instrument pilot).
By all means learn in Spain, but consider this:
If you pitch up a tent next to a UK airfield and fly solidly for 2 months, and start say April, you will get your PPL pretty quick. But almost nobody does this; UK pilots try to fit the training around their life, etc, and together with disorganised schools, planes broken, etc, it drags out, to an average of 1 year. Whereas if you go to the USA, or Spain, it will be a full time project, with no messing around (it will not be a holiday). You will be sh*agged out every day.
Try to learn in the same type of plane which you are likely to be renting after you have your PPL. This will save you a huge amount of time and money, and you will be a better and safer pilot.
Incidentally, if you get an IR then my estimate for the above 3 percentages is about 75% for all 3, assuming no de-icing equipment and a 18000ft operating ceiling.
If you could fly every day of the year, my "go" estimate would be as follows for a day trip:
- a short local flight; 75%
- a 200nm flight; 50%
- a 800nm flight; 30% (obviously you would not fly back the same day on this one)
The reason it drops is that you are more likely to encounter sub-VFR weather.
It will also drop if you want to come back the following day, because there is a high chance of a nice day being followed by a bad one.
Equally there is a high chance of a bad day being followed by a good one, and your despatch rate improves massively if you can set aside 2 or 3 consecutive days for getting away. With 3 days it will be close to 100%.
I don't think there is much difference between the summer and the winter, but in Oct/Nov it will be worse due to the constant warm fronts (rain/drizzle). In the winter you get some bad wx, but in the summer you get some very hazy days (OK if you use a GPS and are a competent instrument pilot).
By all means learn in Spain, but consider this:
If you pitch up a tent next to a UK airfield and fly solidly for 2 months, and start say April, you will get your PPL pretty quick. But almost nobody does this; UK pilots try to fit the training around their life, etc, and together with disorganised schools, planes broken, etc, it drags out, to an average of 1 year. Whereas if you go to the USA, or Spain, it will be a full time project, with no messing around (it will not be a holiday). You will be sh*agged out every day.
Try to learn in the same type of plane which you are likely to be renting after you have your PPL. This will save you a huge amount of time and money, and you will be a better and safer pilot.
Incidentally, if you get an IR then my estimate for the above 3 percentages is about 75% for all 3, assuming no de-icing equipment and a 18000ft operating ceiling.
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Thanks for the thoughts so far.
Thank God I didn't think about gliding. 50 days a year, yikes!
IO, I think for me, right at the beginning of the process, nothing is going to be that far away. In fact, I've started with the NPPL microlight route and a Eurostar, as that's what interests me right now. I suppose that puts me in the 75% bracket.
I'm fairly sure that when (if?) I get a license, I'll just buy into the club eurostar, as its fairly close by (and not costly).
As for not flying weekends, you have a good point Peter. I'm trying to learn to fly at the same time as still pushing my career forwards, which means i'm in that eternal trade off between holiday time, weekends and work. I'm currently trying to see if there's flexibility so that on days when its good flying, and no previous work commitments, I can head out to the airfield. Club seems to be very busy evenings (in the summer) and weekends, but quite quiet on Wednesdays and Thursdays
Anyway, keep it coming. Must be other thoughts out there. Ta IPZ
Thank God I didn't think about gliding. 50 days a year, yikes!
IO, I think for me, right at the beginning of the process, nothing is going to be that far away. In fact, I've started with the NPPL microlight route and a Eurostar, as that's what interests me right now. I suppose that puts me in the 75% bracket.
I'm fairly sure that when (if?) I get a license, I'll just buy into the club eurostar, as its fairly close by (and not costly).
As for not flying weekends, you have a good point Peter. I'm trying to learn to fly at the same time as still pushing my career forwards, which means i'm in that eternal trade off between holiday time, weekends and work. I'm currently trying to see if there's flexibility so that on days when its good flying, and no previous work commitments, I can head out to the airfield. Club seems to be very busy evenings (in the summer) and weekends, but quite quiet on Wednesdays and Thursdays
Anyway, keep it coming. Must be other thoughts out there. Ta IPZ
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It depends also on where you are in the course.
There's no point in a student having a lesson if they're in the circuit and crosswinds are beyond the club's student limit ... but that might be a perfectly good day for a cross country with the instructor doing the landing. (I certainly had some IMC rating lessons on days when I wasn't going to, and didn't, attempt to land the aircraft.)
But if you're needing to do some cross country flying and the cloud base is 1' above the circuit height you get cancelled even though it's a flat calm.
Both result in cancelled lessons, but both are actually perfectly good days for some VFR flying, just not the flying that was next on that student's schedule. On both days, at a different point in the course, some upper air work could be done, with the instructor doing the crosswind landing or going up and down through the clouds.
There's no point in a student having a lesson if they're in the circuit and crosswinds are beyond the club's student limit ... but that might be a perfectly good day for a cross country with the instructor doing the landing. (I certainly had some IMC rating lessons on days when I wasn't going to, and didn't, attempt to land the aircraft.)
But if you're needing to do some cross country flying and the cloud base is 1' above the circuit height you get cancelled even though it's a flat calm.
Both result in cancelled lessons, but both are actually perfectly good days for some VFR flying, just not the flying that was next on that student's schedule. On both days, at a different point in the course, some upper air work could be done, with the instructor doing the crosswind landing or going up and down through the clouds.
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Gertrude, That was what we tried last lesson. First 30 mins went well, but then the cloud base had dropped to such a level that we were left with almost no space to fly between ground clearance and cloud base. The instructor tried to go up through gaps, but given we are flying in a microlight (and need to be able to see the ground, even if we are above a broken layer of cloud) there was too much cloud for it to be safe....so back down and give up.
I suppose where my question is coming from is more related to after I pass. Am I going to be stuck with only a few hours per month maximum for flying, due to weather, and once I bring my own schedule for other stuff in, will I get time to fly at all?
I think what Peter was saying is the direction I'll have to go eventually. Once I don;'t need an instructor, and therefor don't have to fit to his schedule, I'll just steal days as and when I can around work.
Truth is this is a long term hobby as far as I am concerned, and yet another thing for that list of "do it now, start enjoying it, and have yet another thing to do when I retire"....and I have a few years to go till that :-)
I suppose where my question is coming from is more related to after I pass. Am I going to be stuck with only a few hours per month maximum for flying, due to weather, and once I bring my own schedule for other stuff in, will I get time to fly at all?
I think what Peter was saying is the direction I'll have to go eventually. Once I don;'t need an instructor, and therefor don't have to fit to his schedule, I'll just steal days as and when I can around work.
Truth is this is a long term hobby as far as I am concerned, and yet another thing for that list of "do it now, start enjoying it, and have yet another thing to do when I retire"....and I have a few years to go till that :-)
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More than you might imagine.
The trouble is most people become uncomfortable flying low - and rightly so. How much time do we spend at 650 feet? In reality there are few days you cant stay below the base over great distance. Whether you are comfortable or adequately trained to do so is another matter.
The trouble is most people become uncomfortable flying low - and rightly so. How much time do we spend at 650 feet? In reality there are few days you cant stay below the base over great distance. Whether you are comfortable or adequately trained to do so is another matter.
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only 50 days a year for gliding? NOT SO!
Ian, don't panic! Jan Olieslager is talking about flying days in BELGIUM!
We do a lot better than that in our gliding club near Banbury, which is about as far from the sea as you can get in the UK. If you have a look at our website, we flew EVERY DAY THIS WEEK! (Shenington Gliding Club)
In fact, on Friday, there was thermal soaring!!!! in January. And we do ridge soaring, but when April arrives and the days grow longer, we think of casting off the surly bonds of local soaring and go for those cross country flights.
My longest flight in the UK was 511 k, took me 8 hours and 53 minutes. Try that in your spam can!
So don't overlook gliding. We do it because its fun. And challenging.
We do a lot better than that in our gliding club near Banbury, which is about as far from the sea as you can get in the UK. If you have a look at our website, we flew EVERY DAY THIS WEEK! (Shenington Gliding Club)
In fact, on Friday, there was thermal soaring!!!! in January. And we do ridge soaring, but when April arrives and the days grow longer, we think of casting off the surly bonds of local soaring and go for those cross country flights.
My longest flight in the UK was 511 k, took me 8 hours and 53 minutes. Try that in your spam can!
So don't overlook gliding. We do it because its fun. And challenging.
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Fuji, I have a sneaky feeling that given where I fly from, sandwiched between London, Stanstead and Luton, I am going to get very good at flying between the ground (400ft AMSL) and the London TMA (2500ft)
And Mary, thanks for that. I want to learn in a microlight, but maybe I should just come up to Banbury and have some fun in gliders for a day. Looks awesome
And Mary, thanks for that. I want to learn in a microlight, but maybe I should just come up to Banbury and have some fun in gliders for a day. Looks awesome
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but given we are flying in a microlight (and need to be able to see the ground
I'm sure I had a lesson once which consisted of stalling above cloud, then steep descending turns once we'd found a hole to go back down through (if there hadn't been a hole the instructor would have done an instrument approach).
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VFR minima depend on the type of license you have. In the UK, with an IMCR, you can remain VFR in conditions which would be outside VFR with a vanilla PPL. With experience and the right equipment the VFR rules allow flight in very poor conditions, but it is not something to try 5 min after passing your license. With this approach it is possible to do better than IO’s numbers, but do not push it to get back if things have deteriorated too far.
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When I trained for PPL in UK it was (H).
As a result.....
No days lost to waterlogged runways
Viz minima "adequate for speed" (now changed! but still less than fixed wing)
Even with cloud at 600 AGL there was always hover square / quick stops / etc
As a result - I lost only 1 flight day (weekend) in 13 months. That was due to snow.
As a result.....
No days lost to waterlogged runways
Viz minima "adequate for speed" (now changed! but still less than fixed wing)
Even with cloud at 600 AGL there was always hover square / quick stops / etc
As a result - I lost only 1 flight day (weekend) in 13 months. That was due to snow.
Hovering AND talking
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Aw now John R81, it's not fair for us heli chap(esse)s to gloat .... 
But who said life was fair. 
Tee hee.
Cheers
Whirls
But who said life was fair. Tee hee.Cheers
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You can always improve your despatch rate by
- marginal VFR
- illegal VFR
- accepting a high chance of a diversion
- for those instrument-capable, converting a VFR flight into an IFR flight (in the UK, you generally have to remain OCAS all the same though; no way to get a full enroute IFR clearance)
and all these are done routinely, but you need to know what you are doing.
On straight legal VFR planning (e.g. tafs and metars along the route saying you will be legit VFR) you won't do much better than my figures. You won't achieve 90% for sure, over a year.
- marginal VFR
- illegal VFR
- accepting a high chance of a diversion
- for those instrument-capable, converting a VFR flight into an IFR flight (in the UK, you generally have to remain OCAS all the same though; no way to get a full enroute IFR clearance)
and all these are done routinely, but you need to know what you are doing.
On straight legal VFR planning (e.g. tafs and metars along the route saying you will be legit VFR) you won't do much better than my figures. You won't achieve 90% for sure, over a year.
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no way to get a full enroute IFR clearance
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Indeed; one highly esoteric approach would be to file a Eurocontrol flight plan using a satellite internet connection, while in the air, with a ZZZZ (not necessarily ZZZZ but you get the idea) departure and then calling up London Information to pick up the IFR clearance 
The central issue appears to be that the UK doesn't have a way to efficiently insert an IFR flight plan into the enroute system. Other countries have bought the software but the UK hasn't.
The central issue appears to be that the UK doesn't have a way to efficiently insert an IFR flight plan into the enroute system. Other countries have bought the software but the UK hasn't.
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a 800nm flight; 30% (obviously you would not fly back the same day on this one)
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So, what do I know so far?
Well, if I go gliding in Belgium, I can expect a 86% chance of getting cancelled due to weather....interesting, but I am in London
IO tells me 75% chance of flying, which is great, cos that means I only have 1 more lesson to be cancelled, and statistically, I'll never have another lesson missed. Somehow, I think thats statistics playing silly games with me :-)
Oh yes, and a flurry of information that means I should have learned IFR flying on helicopters.
However, coming back to Peter's calculations, if there are 52 weekends in the year, you guys out there must have a gut feeling (and I know a lot of you are NPPL, PPL without IMC or flying VFR only planes/microlights) as to how many weekends a month you actually get to fly, and for how long....
C'mon, get your log books out, and tell me how 2010 went for you. As a trainee NPPL, can I expect to even get my 12 hours per 24 months once I pass, if I only fly weekends?
So, what do you think? Any advance on 75% (which I would be really happy with).
Ta. IPZ
Well, if I go gliding in Belgium, I can expect a 86% chance of getting cancelled due to weather....interesting, but I am in London
IO tells me 75% chance of flying, which is great, cos that means I only have 1 more lesson to be cancelled, and statistically, I'll never have another lesson missed. Somehow, I think thats statistics playing silly games with me :-)
Oh yes, and a flurry of information that means I should have learned IFR flying on helicopters.
However, coming back to Peter's calculations, if there are 52 weekends in the year, you guys out there must have a gut feeling (and I know a lot of you are NPPL, PPL without IMC or flying VFR only planes/microlights) as to how many weekends a month you actually get to fly, and for how long....
C'mon, get your log books out, and tell me how 2010 went for you. As a trainee NPPL, can I expect to even get my 12 hours per 24 months once I pass, if I only fly weekends?
So, what do you think? Any advance on 75% (which I would be really happy with).
Ta. IPZ
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Only in a failrly slow plane like your's, you would be fine in somthing more capable like an SR22
IO tells me 75% chance of flying, which is great, cos that means I only have 1 more lesson to be cancelled, and statistically, I'll never have another lesson missed. Somehow, I think thats statistics playing silly games with me :-)
Lessons can be cancelled due
- visibility below 10km (a PPL can legally fly in 3km, especially with a GPS)
- gusty winds making learning poor value for money (if your instructor is honest)
- planes going "tech"
- plane or instructor not available
etc
can I expect to even get my 12 hours per 24 months once I pass, if I only fly weekends?
I was flying 150hrs+ on a PPL+IMCR and the UK average is believed to be of the order of 30hrs/year and I think the main limiting factor is funding, so if you are around at weekends, 50-100hrs/year should be easy, weekends only.