Flying in Australia on a UK PPL
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Flying in Australia on a UK PPL
I have posted this question in the D&G forums but it occurs to me that most of the posters on there are Australian or have Australian licenses so I'll post it again here to see if there are any UK pilots who have recently made the trip down under and managed to fly on their UK license.
CASA now requires of all pilots applying for a Certificate of Validation the following in respect to English Language Proficiency (ELP):
"if you do not have an ELP 4/5/ or 6 recorded on your overseas flight crew license you will need to be assessed by a CASA authorised Approved Testing Officer (ATO) at one of the approved Testing Centres"
My license only has "English Proficiency: English" which is described as not being acceptable to CASA.
Has anyone managed to get through this particular hurdle without something spending hundreds or taking days out to travel to sit exams? Does anyone know if it is a relatively simple task to close this bureaucratic loophole?
CASA now requires of all pilots applying for a Certificate of Validation the following in respect to English Language Proficiency (ELP):
"if you do not have an ELP 4/5/ or 6 recorded on your overseas flight crew license you will need to be assessed by a CASA authorised Approved Testing Officer (ATO) at one of the approved Testing Centres"
My license only has "English Proficiency: English" which is described as not being acceptable to CASA.
Has anyone managed to get through this particular hurdle without something spending hundreds or taking days out to travel to sit exams? Does anyone know if it is a relatively simple task to close this bureaucratic loophole?
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If I remember correctly, 'Language Proficiency: English' on a CAA issued JAA licence implies level 4.
Section 4.4 of http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...0_W_053_en.pdf reads 'unstated, which is level 4'
Section 4.4 of http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...0_W_053_en.pdf reads 'unstated, which is level 4'
Last edited by flyingpony; 5th Feb 2011 at 16:47. Reason: edited to add reference
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I'm not sure if this helps, but I just walked into one of the clubs at Moorabbin had a quick 5 minute chat with the CFI and he signed me off as English proficient there and then.
Obviously this is not much good to you if you are trying to get this done from overseas. Sadly this was the only easy part of my conversion thanks to the 'wonderful' folks at CASA not being able to locate their posteriors with both hands.
Gareth.
Obviously this is not much good to you if you are trying to get this done from overseas. Sadly this was the only easy part of my conversion thanks to the 'wonderful' folks at CASA not being able to locate their posteriors with both hands.
Gareth.
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I'll be honest, I'm putting just over £100 on this (fees etc.) but the sad thing is I am treating it as a gamble. I reckon that I have a 50/50 chance of making it though the maze.
The guidance to the CoV application forms makes it very clear that the statement on my license regarding language proficiency is NOT acceptable to them as a statement of language proficiency to any ICAO standard.
I am not planning on further complicating things by applying for any form of extra security ID unless it will stop me flying alltogether. I will choose my airfields and flying clubs with this in mind.
The guidance to the CoV application forms makes it very clear that the statement on my license regarding language proficiency is NOT acceptable to them as a statement of language proficiency to any ICAO standard.
I am not planning on further complicating things by applying for any form of extra security ID unless it will stop me flying alltogether. I will choose my airfields and flying clubs with this in mind.
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I am not planning on further complicating things by applying for any form of extra security ID unless it will stop me flying alltogether. I will choose my airfields and flying clubs with this in mind.
If your budget for the whole exercise is 100 quid, then you are wasting your time (and, quite frankly mine and other peoples' on here who try to help)
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I went through the whole frustrating experience in 2009/10! UK PPL looking for a permit to fly in Aus.
Aggrh. Reached the point where my proof of English language proficiency (ELP) was the determined by fact that i) I could use profanity in both sarcastic and ironic forms - 'say again', and ii) deliver blistering rebukes without resort to nationalistic stereotypes! - 'say again Bruce'
Here's the RIDICULOUS problem.
My CFI signed the bit of paper that proves to the CAA that I have ELP level 6 (if you haven't done this, and assuming you are a native English language speaker, dload the form from the CAA website and get your CFI to sign).
The CAA database clearly showed that I ad ELP6, a phone call to the CAA licensing people confirmed this.
CASA will NOT begin to process your application unless your license shows you have ELP6. The LICENSE does NOT show this, only the database.
Easy, I've signed the paperwork (and paid the money!!) to allow the CAA to divulge personal information to other aviation authorities upon request. OK CASA, request from the CAA the fact that I have ELP6. 'Simples'
CASA: 'Sorry POM we cannot BEGIN to process your application without proof of ELP6. To request this information from the CAA would mean we would have to BEGIN to process your application.
STALEMATE
ANSWER: Phone and write to the CAA and asked very politely for someone to write you a letter on CAA headed paper which you can send to to CASA. (remember, an overworked and underpaid employee is doing you a favor at this point, so be polite and VERY thankful). Prepare for a 'fight' with CASA as to authenticity of this document if scanned and emailed. My recommendation; scan it, email it, fax it and send it recorded delivery.
Befriend someone at CASA (Kathy was my friend and ally even though she had the power to say NO). Phone them, their number is on the website. 11pm UK time is their morning so prepare to stay up late and discuss (calmly) why you think they should accept your CAA letter.
Assuming you can form some rapport with the CASA team, they may breach their protocols and BEGIN to process your application and contact the CAA to get your ELP status confirmed. As soon as this is done, it's plain sailing, that is assuming you have all your log books and license copies stamped by and AME or Notary .. but that's another story.
Postscript:
Come on CAA and CASA! - this is madness. Get a conference call organised and sort this out.
It was worth it! - we flew from Wangaratta to Ayers Rock via the fabulous William Creek (Trevor at WrightAir you're a legend in your own time and the 'Pub' should be Conde Nast)
Tool8
Aggrh. Reached the point where my proof of English language proficiency (ELP) was the determined by fact that i) I could use profanity in both sarcastic and ironic forms - 'say again', and ii) deliver blistering rebukes without resort to nationalistic stereotypes! - 'say again Bruce'
Here's the RIDICULOUS problem.
My CFI signed the bit of paper that proves to the CAA that I have ELP level 6 (if you haven't done this, and assuming you are a native English language speaker, dload the form from the CAA website and get your CFI to sign).
The CAA database clearly showed that I ad ELP6, a phone call to the CAA licensing people confirmed this.
CASA will NOT begin to process your application unless your license shows you have ELP6. The LICENSE does NOT show this, only the database.
Easy, I've signed the paperwork (and paid the money!!) to allow the CAA to divulge personal information to other aviation authorities upon request. OK CASA, request from the CAA the fact that I have ELP6. 'Simples'
CASA: 'Sorry POM we cannot BEGIN to process your application without proof of ELP6. To request this information from the CAA would mean we would have to BEGIN to process your application.
STALEMATE
ANSWER: Phone and write to the CAA and asked very politely for someone to write you a letter on CAA headed paper which you can send to to CASA. (remember, an overworked and underpaid employee is doing you a favor at this point, so be polite and VERY thankful). Prepare for a 'fight' with CASA as to authenticity of this document if scanned and emailed. My recommendation; scan it, email it, fax it and send it recorded delivery.
Befriend someone at CASA (Kathy was my friend and ally even though she had the power to say NO). Phone them, their number is on the website. 11pm UK time is their morning so prepare to stay up late and discuss (calmly) why you think they should accept your CAA letter.
Assuming you can form some rapport with the CASA team, they may breach their protocols and BEGIN to process your application and contact the CAA to get your ELP status confirmed. As soon as this is done, it's plain sailing, that is assuming you have all your log books and license copies stamped by and AME or Notary .. but that's another story.
Postscript:
Come on CAA and CASA! - this is madness. Get a conference call organised and sort this out.
It was worth it! - we flew from Wangaratta to Ayers Rock via the fabulous William Creek (Trevor at WrightAir you're a legend in your own time and the 'Pub' should be Conde Nast)
Tool8
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Hi all, many thanks for your honest feedback, I was begining to think that it might actually work out! I guess I have to decide now whether this is going to work or not and it sounds like, of all things, its going to be the language that is the sticking point (ironically it would actually be easier for me to go and fly in France, where I cannot speak the language at all!).
I will try to get some further clarification from CASA before I post my full application. If I have only until April to sort this out then I am unlikely to have enough time for multiple back and forths by post and certainly no time for changes to be made to my license by the CAA!
Tool8, which form is it you downloaded for proof of ELP?
172Driver, thanks for your help so far, your time is not being wasted and it certainly appreciated! I'll try to get some info from the instructors out there about which airfields require an ID to get airside, unless you're familiar with the ones around Sydney?
I will try to get some further clarification from CASA before I post my full application. If I have only until April to sort this out then I am unlikely to have enough time for multiple back and forths by post and certainly no time for changes to be made to my license by the CAA!
Tool8, which form is it you downloaded for proof of ELP?
172Driver, thanks for your help so far, your time is not being wasted and it certainly appreciated! I'll try to get some info from the instructors out there about which airfields require an ID to get airside, unless you're familiar with the ones around Sydney?
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Have a look here: Airservices Australia - Aeronautical Information Package (AIP) (airfield directory)
Off the top of my head: Bankstown (listed under sydney) is security controlled, Camden is a way out, and isn't, and Kingsford smith is kinda off limits
As has (I think) been noted, you actually can't 'exercise the priviledges' of a PPL in australia without having an ASIC/AVID. However, I'm less clear how that would apply for a validated foreign license.
The renewal process (er, for the ASIC that is!) at least isn't too bad, I got mine with little hassle - thought there are horror stories around.
Off the top of my head: Bankstown (listed under sydney) is security controlled, Camden is a way out, and isn't, and Kingsford smith is kinda off limits
As has (I think) been noted, you actually can't 'exercise the priviledges' of a PPL in australia without having an ASIC/AVID. However, I'm less clear how that would apply for a validated foreign license.
The renewal process (er, for the ASIC that is!) at least isn't too bad, I got mine with little hassle - thought there are horror stories around.
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I think unless I really needed the hours in the log book I would be inclined to make contact with a few clubs and see if an hour builder or pilot with time to Spare would act as safety pilot. You also get someone with local procedure experience and who knows the places that may not be in the average tour guide. ISTR something about needing two chartsfor VFR flying in Aus? If so then how many hours checkout wil you need? I would rather use that money to pay for a safety pilot. Just my two penarth!
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JamesT
Google 'SRG1199'. That's the form!
Guess you are already familiar with CASA form 213
Remember - any paper copies you post to CASA have to be certified as a true and original copies (copies of your logbook for example). I got my friendly CASA registered AME to stamp the copies with his AME stamp thingy. CASA will just send them back if not 'certified', making April an impossibility :-(
WRT aviation security, one of my fellow pilots was Aus with all clearances. As long as I was with him - no questions! Only Ayers Rock asked to see a card, the rest of the fields we flew into, Swan Hill, Broken Hill Coober Pedy etc .... we were lucky to see a lizard!
Google 'SRG1199'. That's the form!
Guess you are already familiar with CASA form 213
Remember - any paper copies you post to CASA have to be certified as a true and original copies (copies of your logbook for example). I got my friendly CASA registered AME to stamp the copies with his AME stamp thingy. CASA will just send them back if not 'certified', making April an impossibility :-(
WRT aviation security, one of my fellow pilots was Aus with all clearances. As long as I was with him - no questions! Only Ayers Rock asked to see a card, the rest of the fields we flew into, Swan Hill, Broken Hill Coober Pedy etc .... we were lucky to see a lizard!
