Passenger Carrying - Beyond 90 days
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The thing which is very wrong with the UK CAA regs is that you cannot renew your passenger currency with another normal PPL holder who is current.
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what always stands out for me when I browse the accident/incident reports is the frequency of low hours in the "Commanders experience" detail. In this months magazine for example 50% of the reports that mention the currency of the pilot involved have little or no currency. It is similar every month.
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The other pilot is P1, he is current so you are legal to be a passenger. You do your three take-offs and landings as sole manipulator of the controls - where's the rule saying you can't do this whilst you're a passenger?
sorry, but if you are a passenger, you are NOT allowed to manipulate the controls! And, since you cannot add that time to your log book, how are you to prove you did 3 landings?
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There is nothing in the UK ANO that precludes pax from operating the controls.
In fact the CAA encourages pilot's to give there partners practise after they have done the safety pilot course.
In fact the CAA encourages pilot's to give there partners practise after they have done the safety pilot course.
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sorry, but if you are a passenger, you are NOT allowed to manipulate the controls!
And, since you cannot add that time to your log book, how are you to prove you did 3 landings?
It's true that you can't count the time towards anything useful, but you don't want to - you just want to count the landings.
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90 days is somewhat arbitrary, I think it depends on the individual, but presumably 90 days is generally suitable for the majority of pilots. What do you think would the 90 day rule be OK if the pilot was a really old dude?
But there has to be some guideline if not an actual rule. I am out of currency and therefore somewhat wary of myself. It'll be definitely three T & Gs maybe a lot more, and with handy winds to boot.
AIUI these have to be solo; I'm wondering if the safer option of another PPL not an instructor is allowed on this flight by JAR or FAA regs?
But there has to be some guideline if not an actual rule. I am out of currency and therefore somewhat wary of myself. It'll be definitely three T & Gs maybe a lot more, and with handy winds to boot.
AIUI these have to be solo; I'm wondering if the safer option of another PPL not an instructor is allowed on this flight by JAR or FAA regs?
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But then you fall under another set of guidelines.
If you fly a club aircraft, then club rules apply. In our local club it is a 28-day rule.
If you fly a group aircraft, then their rules apply. In our group it is a 42-day rule.
Of course, if you are a sole owner you can make your own rules, but then the 90-day rule will apply, however you choose to interpret it
If you fly a club aircraft, then club rules apply. In our local club it is a 28-day rule.
If you fly a group aircraft, then their rules apply. In our group it is a 42-day rule.
Of course, if you are a sole owner you can make your own rules, but then the 90-day rule will apply, however you choose to interpret it
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Why so obsessed by rules?
The rules should be a long stop.
Be aware of when you feel less than current. Be aware of when the conditions are beyond those with which your currency will make you comfortable.
In my experience pilots with few hours and just within currency are inclined to be on the edge of being safe. Those with a thousand or more hours are able to deal with periods of low currency much better.
However you come to realise their are no hard and fast rules and no substiute for learning the signs that you are not as comfortable as you know you should be.
I play a few sports, including golf. I have good days and bad days, and I have days I know that its been too long since I last played. You just know in time. Flying is no different unless you want to pretend otherwise.
The rules should be a long stop.
Be aware of when you feel less than current. Be aware of when the conditions are beyond those with which your currency will make you comfortable.
In my experience pilots with few hours and just within currency are inclined to be on the edge of being safe. Those with a thousand or more hours are able to deal with periods of low currency much better.
However you come to realise their are no hard and fast rules and no substiute for learning the signs that you are not as comfortable as you know you should be.
I play a few sports, including golf. I have good days and bad days, and I have days I know that its been too long since I last played. You just know in time. Flying is no different unless you want to pretend otherwise.
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I think, Gertie, you need to be PIC when you log those landings etc. Otherwise, you could log them while sitting at home, and save a whole load of avgas... (gosh if I can think of that.................)
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So is that the final word on the 3 landings - you can only log them as P1 or does gertrude have a point? I agree it would be far more practical being able to achieve them with another PPL holder who is current, though without a formal flight record in your logbook it seems like you'd need an instructor (but even then, who's to say you were the sole manipulator of the controls???)
Oh FFS We are talking three landings in three months. Not a lot, is it? If your club or group says more that is up to them. If you have your own aircraft then just do what you want for solo flying, you are the one arguing with your insurers. Stop gold plating the rules guys, please!
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... achieve them with another PPL holder who is current, though without a formal flight record in your logbook it ...
He logs the flight as PIC, but minus the TOLs you did, (his logbook is in the paper trail).
You log the TOLs you did, (your logbook is in the paper trail).
If all the entries are true, what's the problem?
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So is that the final word on the 3 landings - you can only log them as P1
Even if I'm not right (which I believe I am, as that has been the outcome of the last 437 threads on this subject) he can't seriously be suggesting that you can't do it Pu/t!
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Quote:
... achieve them with another PPL holder who is current, though without a formal flight record in your logbook it ...
Your PPL mate books the aircraft out and in (airfield is in the paper trail).
He logs the flight as PIC, but minus the TOLs you did, (his logbook is in the paper trail).
You log the TOLs you did, (your logbook is in the paper trail).
If all the entries are true, what's the problem?
... achieve them with another PPL holder who is current, though without a formal flight record in your logbook it ...
Your PPL mate books the aircraft out and in (airfield is in the paper trail).
He logs the flight as PIC, but minus the TOLs you did, (his logbook is in the paper trail).
You log the TOLs you did, (your logbook is in the paper trail).
If all the entries are true, what's the problem?
The original point was that someone does a couple of hours in 60 days. To be current under club rules it is TOLs that count, not hours. The simplest thing is whenever you fly do 3 landings and take-offs.
That way you'll keep legal and current. If you do a fly-away, that'll be one landing, so do a touch and go on the return, or do a triangular flight.
How hard is that?
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How hard is that? What - time travel???? The original point was that someone is ALREADY past the 90 day theshold and wondering what is the most straightforward way to become legal to carry passengers. Also note that earlier threads have stated the PIC doesn't have to perform the take-offs and landings - this seems to be the crux. Note this was not a querie of who & what represents safest conduct so please can the willy wavers leave this thread alone. Thanks.
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Because in a single-crew aircraft he would be a passenger.
Whether that is a good idea, is a different issue. I was talking about the "formal record" of what was done. I do have views about currency, but others, including you, have made them already.
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Lasors states:
requirement.
This would seem to me to be fairly conclusive as a Safety Pilot is not permitted. So it's either on your own (ie PIC - manipulating the controls while someone else is 'acting PIC' is not permitted) or with an instructor. I think they use the 'sole manipulator of controls' statement simply to account for the fact that if using an instructor then you won't be P1. Hope this helps clear any confusion (and please don't take my word as gospel, it's just my understanding and I'm no more qualified than anyone else on this thread).
Carriage of Passengers
Pilots not operating in accordance with JAR-OPS
or EU-OPS’ are required to meet recent experience
criteria to carry passengers. A pilot shall not operate an
aeroplane or helicopter carrying passengers as pilot-incommand
or co-pilot unless that pilot has carried out at
least three take-offs and three landings as pilot flying
(sole manipulator of the controls) in an aeroplane or
helicopter of the same type/class or flight simulator of the
aeroplane type/class or helicopter type to be used in the
preceding 90 days. If the flight is to be carried out in an
aeroplane at night, one of these take-offs and landings
must have been at night, unless a valid instrument rating is
held. If the flight is to be carried out in a helicopter at night,
3 take-offs and landings must have been at night, unless a
valid instrument rating (helicopters) is held.
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above
will be required to complete the above requirements
either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as
appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the
instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The
carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this
Pilots not operating in accordance with JAR-OPS
or EU-OPS’ are required to meet recent experience
criteria to carry passengers. A pilot shall not operate an
aeroplane or helicopter carrying passengers as pilot-incommand
or co-pilot unless that pilot has carried out at
least three take-offs and three landings as pilot flying
(sole manipulator of the controls) in an aeroplane or
helicopter of the same type/class or flight simulator of the
aeroplane type/class or helicopter type to be used in the
preceding 90 days. If the flight is to be carried out in an
aeroplane at night, one of these take-offs and landings
must have been at night, unless a valid instrument rating is
held. If the flight is to be carried out in a helicopter at night,
3 take-offs and landings must have been at night, unless a
valid instrument rating (helicopters) is held.
A pilot who has not met the experience criteria above
will be required to complete the above requirements
either as Pilot-in-Command of aeroplanes/helicopters as
appropriate or with a flight instructor, providing that the
instructor does not influence the controls at any time. The
carriage of a safety pilot is not permitted to satisfy this
requirement.
This would seem to me to be fairly conclusive as a Safety Pilot is not permitted. So it's either on your own (ie PIC - manipulating the controls while someone else is 'acting PIC' is not permitted) or with an instructor. I think they use the 'sole manipulator of controls' statement simply to account for the fact that if using an instructor then you won't be P1. Hope this helps clear any confusion (and please don't take my word as gospel, it's just my understanding and I'm no more qualified than anyone else on this thread).
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Interesting discussion. Here's the relevant bit of the ANO:
So you cannot act as PIC of a passenger-carrying aircraft if you haven't done the three landings in the last 90 days.
So you somehow have to chalk up those landings, either as a solo pilot (PIC, but not carrying passengers) or in a position where you are not PIC, but you are the sole manipulator of the controls. This can be done with an instructor (he is PIC, you are PU/T) but, indeed, I can't find any legal reason why this cannot be with another current PPL (he is PIC, you are PAX but manipulating the controls).
The carriage of a safety pilot is not something that the ANO specifically allows or forbids, for the simple reason that the whole concept of safety pilot is not defined in a legal sense (*). For legal purposes, the safety pilot is just a passenger and since you're not allowed to take passengers, you can't take a safety pilot either.
(*) Except within an article about simulated instrument flight. And the definition is then limited to that context.
SCHEDULE 7
PART A
Flight crew licences
SECTION 1
United Kingdom Licences
SUB-SECTION 1
Aeroplane pilots
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) is entitled to fly
as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise
falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(2) The holder may not—
[...]
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless—
(i) within the preceding 90 days the holder has made at least three take-offs and three
landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or
class; and
(ii) if such a flight is to be carried out at night and the licence does not include an
instrument rating (aeroplane), at least one of those take-offs and landings has been at
night.
PART A
Flight crew licences
SECTION 1
United Kingdom Licences
SUB-SECTION 1
Aeroplane pilots
Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes)
Minimum age – 17 years
No maximum period of validity
Privileges:
(1) Subject to paragraph (2), the holder of a Private Pilot’s Licence (Aeroplanes) is entitled to fly
as pilot in command or co-pilot of an aeroplane of any of the types or classes specified or otherwise
falling within an aircraft rating included in the licence.
(2) The holder may not—
[...]
(g) fly as pilot in command of such an aeroplane carrying passengers unless—
(i) within the preceding 90 days the holder has made at least three take-offs and three
landings as the sole manipulator of the controls of an aeroplane of the same type or
class; and
(ii) if such a flight is to be carried out at night and the licence does not include an
instrument rating (aeroplane), at least one of those take-offs and landings has been at
night.
So you somehow have to chalk up those landings, either as a solo pilot (PIC, but not carrying passengers) or in a position where you are not PIC, but you are the sole manipulator of the controls. This can be done with an instructor (he is PIC, you are PU/T) but, indeed, I can't find any legal reason why this cannot be with another current PPL (he is PIC, you are PAX but manipulating the controls).
This would seem to me to be fairly conclusive as a Safety Pilot is not permitted.
(*) Except within an article about simulated instrument flight. And the definition is then limited to that context.
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We come back to previous discussions which have held the view that (as usual) ANO takes precedence over Lasors, and that passengers may in fact do the "manipulating" and that there is not even a literal requirement to log the manipulation!
Either way it is plainly daft that a rated PPL (who may well be far more current on type in a privately owned aircraft than an instructor) should not be allowed to be present whilst the P1 gets himself/herself up to speed.
Either way it is plainly daft that a rated PPL (who may well be far more current on type in a privately owned aircraft than an instructor) should not be allowed to be present whilst the P1 gets himself/herself up to speed.
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The way i see the rule is 3 take offs & landings, so go up in the circuit on your own, first t/o= 1, a touch & go= 1 landing, 1 t/o, touch and go 2= 1 more landing and 1 t/o and final full stop, 1 landing... That is 3 t/o 3 landings which from what i have heard is sufficient. If you fly on flight time, that would be roughly 15 mins air time, if you do tech time it's 25 mins... Not that expensive over 3 months either. I know it won't do much for your airmanship (my idea is to practice it on flight sim- it helps keep awareness up) but the OP asked for the easiest way to stay current for SLF- that is it...
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Jack
Hope this helps,
Regards,
Jack
Last edited by jackdhc1; 7th Mar 2011 at 00:33.