Thinking about gliding

[The500man]

As I'm currently working on ATPL distance learning, and alongside paying for this course, am saving for an aerobatic course in the summer, I was looking into cheaper options of flying in the meantime.

Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be too popular going to a gliding club and saying that, so I was wondering if anyone on PPRUNE has made the backwards journey of power to powerless flight and whether they would recommend it to me?

Is it an easy transition to gliders? How long can you stay in the air? Can you actually go somwhere?

I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley. Does anybody have recent experience there? Would it be a good place to start?

[BackPacker]

Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.

Brilliant!

I started gliding about three years ago, when I had my PPL for two years or so. I always compare it to sailing vs. motorboating. With a motor boat you can be reasonably sure that you're going to get from A to B on schedule, but the trip itself is relatively boring. With sailing, most days you'll be working hard all day, but at the end of the day you'll find yourself back at the same dock where you left that morning.

Gliding is most of all a sport, instead of a method of getting somewhere. The sport is to steer the aircraft so that you're making maximum use of the available lift, to stay aloft as long as you can and eventually get as far away as you can. That requires constant attention to circumstances, where lift is likely to be found, navigation, other airspace users and so on. It's very intensive, particularly on days with only minimal convection. But most glider pilots, at the end of the day, end up at the same place they departed from.

How long can you stay aloft? Well, you'll find that lots of flights last less than ten minutes. Slightly more if you get an aerotow to a reasonable altitude. Those are the typical flights where you cannot find any lift whatsoever, so it's all downhill. In contrast, the longest flights are in excess of 24 hours but you're going to need ridge lift for those. Convective lift only happens roughly between 11am and 5pm because you need sunshine for that.

What's the maximum distance? Well over 3000 km. But those are record-braking flights which do not happen very often. And even then, only in specific circumstances and specific places (long ridges with perpendicular wind for instance). 500 km is quite an achievement on convective lift alone. But (and that's a big but) you have to be lucky with the weather in any case. You cannot use a glider as a reasonably reliable method to get from A to B, unless A and B are both glider sites (with the ability to get you back in the air somehow) and not too far apart.

So don't approach gliding as a method of transport. Approach it as a sport. One that is able to refine your basic flying skills to no end. You'll get a much better feel for what the aircraft, but also the atmosphere is capable of.

If you want to get an intro flight, just phone the club and ask for an intro launch or intro day. They'll be happy to accomodate you.

[effortless]

I was out walking along the south downs two weekends ago. There were about three gliders riding the ridge. They were up for ages and having a ball by the look of it. I was very jealous, I haven't been gliding for years but you will love it if flying is what you love.

[tinpilot]

How hard is it? Not that hard:
2 day course
video

Do they go places? Yes Have a look at some flights from last summer, sort by distance.

As BackPacker says, it's a sport, not a means of transport. Some people get it, some people don't.

The biggest problem with Kenley is that it's surrounded by airspace and sits under a 2,500 ceiling. Larger clubs usually have more training options & better aircraft for post solo flying.

Soaring involves waiting for the right weather & then flying one long flight.

[thing]

Er........gliding ain't boring. Crank your speakers up........

YouTube - Extreme Gliding

By the way, Backpacker has summed gliding up as well as anyone could, it's about flying for the sheer sake of it. Plus a good flight on a good day will wring you out, it's an extremely skilled sport. Gliders are easy to fly, they are maddeningly difficult to fly well. Bit like golf really.

[tggzzz]

am saving for an aerobatic course in the summer

Why not do aerobatics in a glider? Even standard trainers do loops, chandelles and spins, many gliders allow rolls, and some are stunning aerobatic.

• bog-standard pre-solo aerobatics YouTube - Segelflug, Trudeln mit Fox
• standard aerobatics YouTube - Sailplane aerobatics (Better quality)
• display aerobatics YouTube - Nutter in a glider at Kemble 2007
• serious aerobatics YouTube - Aeros in Swift

Gliding seems like an option, but I'm not convinced it would be worthwhile. My impression of gliding is flying round and round in circles while getting in the way of power pilots who are actually on their way somwehere.

It is said that people who transition from gliders to powered aircraft first have to learn that you can fly straight and level, and then have to find a way of staying awake while flying straight and level because it is soooo boring.

Try ridge running where you are eyeballing sheep on the hillside whilst avoiding the other half dozen craft doing the same. YouTube - A Jolly Jaunt in the DG500 or YouTube - What did you do today? YouTube - You Call That A Ridge!

Try "formation" flying behind a tug, or "loose formation" flying by sharing a thermal with other gliders.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be too popular going to a gliding club and saying that,

I expect they would have a slow, broad grin as they realised how much fun could be had demonstrating that your understanding is flawed. That's both you and them having fun

How long can you stay in the air?

I believe duration records were abandoned decades ago because it is unwise to fly when you are asleep. Nowadays it is limited by the hours of daylight.

Five hours is the shortest that is regarded as "interesting" (but certainly not remarkable).

Can you actually go somwhere?

Well, if you want to guarantee arriving at a particular place at a particular time, then I wouldn't use a glider.

But yes, they do go places (and usually return). For example, a few of last year's flights picked out more-or-less at random...

• London-N Yorkshire-London-Humberside-London Flight Details
• London-Scotland-London Flight Details

I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley.

See British Gliding Association >> Find a Club >> UK Map for the full list.

[Mechta]

Quote from I don't know where: 'Gliding is to power flying as seduction is to rape'

A 747 pilot joined our club recently, and he loves it.

Its a totally different activity to power flying.

Get a thermal just as you were about to start your landing circuit, take it up to cloudbase, head along a cloud street, meet some other gliders and join their thermal, look out like you've never done before, they're above you, below you, on the other side of the thermal from you. maybe this one's too crowded so go and look for another.
A buzzard joins you in this one and you can see his tip feathers working every molecule of lift. You've got bigger wings though and after a few revolutions you outclimb him.
Another go in the cloudstreet, this time just dive in sink and slow down and climb in lift. Home airfield calls to say they've got heli movements for the next 3/4 hour, so come down now, stay up or land out. ' Sod it', you think, 'I'm at 4500ft, I'll tell them I'm staying up'.
.
Suddenly the sky is full of gliders, it must be a task returning to the neighbouring gliding site. At least there's no difficulty seeing where the lift is now. In no time, the home airfield is open again, so its time to head back to give someone else a go. Loads of height to burn off, so nose down and start covering ground at a speed to make a good few spamcan drivers green with envy.
Back on the ground, and the first person to arrive says, 'Can you go and drive the winch, '**** has been on it for ages and its his go in this one.' Ah, well, payback time...

Just flying around in circles? Yes, I guess it is, mostly!

[chrisN]

500man, here are some realities for you.

At most gliding clubs, you don't just book a lesson, you need to be prepared to spend most or all of the day there at a time. Ratio of time on the ground to time in the air is very poor compared with power flying.

The time on the ground is not all "wasted” as it involves a lot of learning from seeing what other people do, as well as making your contribution to launching the others, just as you get help from them when it is your turn.

Conversion to gliding and reaching a stage of competence where you can do your first cross-country is possible in one season, if you can go for one day most weeks.

Cost per minute flying in club two seaters is not much cheaper than power, but most training flights are quite short. Winch launching is probably harder to learn including catering for all emergencies. All-aerotow launching and learning would be more expensive, per flight, but might be more economical overall to solo standard.

Gliding examinations have to be taken before going cross-country, even if you have all your PPL exams passed (an ATPL at my gliding club had to do them all too).

Hope this helps.

Chris N

[mary meagher]

No, not Kenley. Only operates Monday through Friday, weekends is reserved for ATC. And as others have noted, airspace problems big time.

Hate to say it, but you are probably closer to Lasham than my club at Shenington near Banbury, but google both and then decide!

Mary

[BackPacker]

Gliding examinations have to be taken before going cross-country, even if you have all your PPL exams passed (an ATPL at my gliding club had to do them all too).

In the Netherlands, my PPL gets me waivers for four out of six ground exams. The ones I still have to do are Gliders Technical (construction) and Navigation.

An ATPL would get you a waiver for Navigation too.

But I have to say that the BGA seems to have a totally different examination regime compared to the Dutch KNVvL, so YMMV. Even though they both claim to deliver an ICAO-compliant GPL.

[cats_five]

I think the nearest club to me would be based at Kenley.

Nearest isn't necessarily best just as cheapest isn't necessarily best. use the BGA website, look at the websites of the easy-to-get-to clubs, pay some visits and then decide.

Is gliding a backwards step? No. Instead of being a mode of transport it's a very skilful activity - far more than power flying. We have quite a few CPLs (including two of the best XC pilots) and several PPLs at my club who all find gliding a challenging and enthralling sport. We will also be flying, safely, at my club in winds that will have the local GA strip grounded.

[Frelon]

The500Man

If Kenley is closer than Lasham, and you can fly during the week, do not discount it. The smaller gliding clubs tend to be a little more welcoming. Flying from a small airfield like Kenley will certainly improve your flying skills and help make you a better pilot.

[blind pew]

Except for paragliding - you won't find any other form of civilian flying more challenging nor rewarding.
Flown big jets for excellent companies, instructed class A tail draggers and gliders; also flown helicopter, paramotor, microlights - everything except military and autogyros.

Glider aeros are an art but the best flying is mountain soaring (french alps).

And if you get bored you can always tug - cable drop downwind at 50ft doing 250 kph followed by pull up to 150ft and land opposite direction - rolling the wings level from a 40 degree banked turn at 20ft.

The CAA stopped glider racing finishes after a photographer was decapitated - now that was exciting flying.

[The500man]

Thanks for all the info everyone!

I hadn't even given vertical airspace restrictions a single thought when thinking about Kenley.

It looks, from the BGA site, like my options would include Kent, Booker, and Surrey Hills. Based solely on them being the nearest.

I am surprised by some of the prices quoted though. It certainly isn't cheap! £90 for a 15 minute trial flight at Kent. Even more at Booker.

Weekday flying isn't an issue for me so I think I'll contact Surrey Hills at Kenley and see if it's something I definitely want to spend money on before commiting to the more expensive courses and aerotows.

Now if anyone is planning a sacrifice to the sun god, can you let me know so I can book some flying time!

Thanks

[Slats One]

Think on to glider skills

If you are going to be an airline pilot, one day, one day, you are going to need enhanced situational awareness and an appreciation of your aircraft's wing loading, wing energy and descent profile, oh and you may find your self needing some really sharp situational awareness, look out and speed references in the landing approach.

By the above I mean actual forencis, immediate, thinking- sharp focused, attitude - the same sort of behavioural psychology that saw the glider instructor Capt Chesley Sullenberger bring it all together in his US Air Air A320 above the Hudson River....

So the way to sharpen up your thinking - especially in the landing zone, is by learning to fly a glider- and how to land a glider- every landing being a critical exercise in judegement and multi-tasking.

By learning these skills, you will avoid doing something like that which happened to a Turkish Airliens Boeing 737 NG over the muddy fields of Schiphol Amsterdam not so long ago.

Gliding = advanced, predictive - aware - thinking - unless you become one of those complacent types who knows everything and gets caught out by a lack of acuity - there are a few like that about in all types of flying.

I know, I am a power pilot who now glides and I am So much safer for it.

Go and learn to glide, my young accomplice in the act of flight.

[thing]

£90 for an intro flight seems a bit steep, it's £30 at my site which includes a months membership. Once you join a club it's not expensive. My club is £190 a year membership and £6 for a winch launch. Soaring in a club glider is 30p a minute, so basically an hours gliding costs £24. Of course if you have your own or a share in a glider you just pay £6 for the launch and fly all day if you want.

[Pace]

Soaring in a club glider is 30p a minute, so basically an hours gliding costs £24. Of course if you have your own or a share in a glider you just pay £6 for the launch and fly all day if you want

.

Is that 30p a minute for a landline launch or are mobiles more ?

All sounds very tempting.The challenege of seeking lift sounds good too.
Who knows might have a go myself certainly cheaper than driving a club lawnmower around.

Pace

[thing]

I haven't got a PPL but have done plenty of thrumming around in light aircraft. Gliding is infinitely more interesting from a pure flying point of view. There's not a lot of straight and level lets put it that way...

The point about not being able to go anywhere is an interesting one. How many people with PPL's create somewhere to go because they have a PPL? Or do they have to justify having a PPL by taking folk for the £100 burger? I suspect, I may be wrong, that many people who do a PPL do so purely for the pleasure of flying rather than as a means to an end, such as commuting to work etc. I'm not including pro pilots here obviously. The only name that springs to mind on this forum is IO540 who I believe uses his light aircraft for work as well as pleasure.

Of course each to their own, the sky is big enough for all of us (well....you would think so...) but if you just like being up in the wild blue yonder then I think a lot of people miss a trick by not trying gliding. I've never met a single power pilot who glides that doesn't get an awful lot more out of gliding than they do powered. As I say, it's not a knocking competition, I'm thinking of doing a PPL myself, purely as another flying experience, you can't have too many, but I can't see me being more than a VFR 12 hours a year man.

[Gasil]

I dunno... nipping of to the coast on a nice day seems a pretty good reason to have a PPL to me...
but, I also fly gliders. Gliding is easy -there's nothing difcult about and don't beleive anyone who says otherwise. But what you will get from gliding is lots of practice engine failure and lots of dead stick landings. It will give you a better sence of the atmosphere; for example, what you call turbulance is infact the lifting energy of a thermal. I know lots of power pilots, myself included, who use thermals to climb and get better perfomance out of our aircraft. What gliding will give you is the confidence to dump your a/c in a field if the donkey quits and a lot of good stick and rudder practice.

[cats_five]

Originally Posted by Gasil

Gliding is easy -there's nothing difcult about and don't beleive anyone who says otherwise.

Yes, gliding is easy. Soaring is a whole different and much harder ball game.