PPL- Spin Training
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Even if it is a good idea to bring back Spin training...
The overwhelming majority of FI's who have qualifed in the last 10 years are going to need to do some training before they demonstrate it never mind teach it.
The skill base has gone now, if you brought it in again without trying to get some experence back it would be carnage.
I have done a reasonable amount of spinning in tommys and Cessna and in no way would I call myself an expert. 2-3 times I have managed to get the aircraft into a mode of spin which doesn't recover with the POH "method" of recovery. Thankfully in my FIC the FII managed to flick over in a steep turn into spin and we had to increase the power to get the rudder working again to get out of it. Well we only had 700 ft agl left when we recovered.
I can see Darwin effect removing an awful lot of talent limited instructors from the instructors pool if they bring it back.
The overwhelming majority of FI's who have qualifed in the last 10 years are going to need to do some training before they demonstrate it never mind teach it.
The skill base has gone now, if you brought it in again without trying to get some experence back it would be carnage.
I have done a reasonable amount of spinning in tommys and Cessna and in no way would I call myself an expert. 2-3 times I have managed to get the aircraft into a mode of spin which doesn't recover with the POH "method" of recovery. Thankfully in my FIC the FII managed to flick over in a steep turn into spin and we had to increase the power to get the rudder working again to get out of it. Well we only had 700 ft agl left when we recovered.
I can see Darwin effect removing an awful lot of talent limited instructors from the instructors pool if they bring it back.
Last edited by mad_jock; 31st Jan 2011 at 15:22. Reason: He removed the boggin green from the post above
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Yes, all of these (the list) should be taught. It's up to instructors to make their students aware that there are many other valuable things to be learned, which are not in the scope of the main training for a PPL.
It's up to the students (and pilots in general) to recognize the true value of this training, and assure that they receive it! And recurrantly.
Some of the flight tests I fly are in the company of another pilot. I've stopped being surprised by the pilots telling me that either they have never spun, or have not spun since they did their PPL x years ago.... "Well, I'm going to brief you for spins, and we're going to do some..."
It's up to the students (and pilots in general) to recognize the true value of this training, and assure that they receive it! And recurrantly.
Some of the flight tests I fly are in the company of another pilot. I've stopped being surprised by the pilots telling me that either they have never spun, or have not spun since they did their PPL x years ago.... "Well, I'm going to brief you for spins, and we're going to do some..."
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They cover it yes but that will be the first time the person has seen a spin.
They will normally have done it in a "o bollocks" let go of everything "oooo look its recovered" cessna.
They might save there bum if they are really really lucky, but demonstrate it never mind patter it. No chance.
They will normally have done it in a "o bollocks" let go of everything "oooo look its recovered" cessna.
They might save there bum if they are really really lucky, but demonstrate it never mind patter it. No chance.
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In fact, in aerobatic types, you can control the recovery to within less than 90 degrees of an intended recovery point.
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Otherwise points will be deducted.
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Yeah, OK, the pedants caught me out on the spin recovery accuracy. I was just trying to make a point to the OP that spins are completely controllable and not the dreaded "death spiral" one wayward flight instructor described them as to a prospective student's girlfriend. (mind you, he was a frustrated fast-jet-jock-wannabe who tried to build himself up in hopelessly sad ways).
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Yeah, that's better... If I'm recovered from a spin in the nearest half turn I planned, I'm pretty happy with myself. I no longer prolong spins beyond what I'm required to do. One turn in, one more turn out, if all goes as planned. Indeed, the Caravan, I could not hold in any more, it was recovering itself....
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At least you could jettison it with out feeling bad, or needing to buy a round of beers :-)
Also somebody said it was hard to wing drop a PA28 try asymetric fuel loading and pick your windward wing :-) works a treat.
Done this in a tommie too, the thing turned on its back!
Also somebody said it was hard to wing drop a PA28 try asymetric fuel loading and pick your windward wing :-) works a treat.
Done this in a tommie too, the thing turned on its back!
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With great thanks to Bern4444, I have edited out the pertinent 30 seconds of my Caravan spinning video, and got it to Youtube. I'm still advertizing for the software, but that's just fine, 'cause it worked!
Thanks Shy Torque.... I think I've got it now
Thanks Shy Torque.... I think I've got it now
Last edited by Pilot DAR; 2nd Feb 2011 at 20:42.
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Pilot DAR, to insert a Youtube link:
Go to the video in question and copy everything after the "=" sign by highlighting it and pressing CTRL and C on your keyboard.
Go to "edit post" now, seeing as you've already posted it and delete what you've already tried.
Click on the "youtube" symbol to insert that in your post. Then put your cursor in the middle of the insert and press "CTRL" and "V" to insert the link to the video.
Make sure you haven't included the "="; you need everything after that.
That should do it!
Go to the video in question and copy everything after the "=" sign by highlighting it and pressing CTRL and C on your keyboard.
Go to "edit post" now, seeing as you've already posted it and delete what you've already tried.
Click on the "youtube" symbol to insert that in your post. Then put your cursor in the middle of the insert and press "CTRL" and "V" to insert the link to the video.
Make sure you haven't included the "="; you need everything after that.
That should do it!
Join Date: Jan 2001
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Spinning used to be used as a cloud break method pre war (not that i was around then) but it was stable, slow speed and allowed an aircraft to descend through cloud in a fairly set position.
I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.
I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.
Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin. IMC is another area.
I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?
But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.
Pace
I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.
I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.
Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin. IMC is another area.
I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?
But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.
Pace
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Spinning used to be used as a cloud break method pre war (not that i was around then) but it was stable, slow speed and allowed an aircraft to descend through cloud in a fairly set position.
I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.
I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.
Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin.Hence why we do multi engine stall training several thousand feet up! IMC is another area.
I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?
I would recommend any pilot do a couple of aerobatic sessions in an aerobatic aircraft with an instructor as it will improve your abilities as a pilot and your confidence in handling an aircraft.
But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.
Pace
I can remember reading a report of a flight test on a four seater canard. The test pilot got into a flat spin and as the aircraft was the only test machine they had he tried to save it by climbing out and putting his weight on the canard. That failed by which time he was too low to bail out. He stayed with the aircraft which spun harmlessly onto a beach with only minor damage and none to the pilot.
I am cautious of pilots being taught to drive aeroplanes rather than to fly. Flying is about knowing your aircraft and what it will do or can do if misused.
We all know a spiral dive which is a much more violent manouvre than a spin.
Really its about confidence in being trained to appreciate all your aircraft is capable of doing.
Go into multi engine stalling and the possibility of adding unequal power on recovery and you have the danger of a spin.Hence why we do multi engine stall training several thousand feet up! IMC is another area.
I appreciate there may be more spinning accidents while training to do them.
I appreciate a spin will be different 2 up compared to a loaded 4 seater but those are not arguements against spin training. They may be arguements about what you train in? and with who?
I would recommend any pilot do a couple of aerobatic sessions in an aerobatic aircraft with an instructor as it will improve your abilities as a pilot and your confidence in handling an aircraft.
But to turn out a well trained and rounded pilot he needs to know all that his aircraft is capable of doing. He needs to be taught to FLY not drive aeroplanes.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Feb 2011 at 08:01.