When would you wrest control?
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From: Ontario, Canada
point where life and limb are threatened and you can defend your position to the hilt.
I would also be reporting the incident immediately on landing.
If I'm within reach of the controls of an aircraft, it will be in the company of a pilot, whom I know at least well enough to feel confident that he/she would not attempt to haul me up on charges, for making an effort to keep a flight safe, where danger was imminent!
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From: Italy
I am just a plain vanilla ppl with a tiny bit of experience.
If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.
I often fly RH with new/low hour pilots. On a few occasions simply suggesting what to do has been sufficient to straighten out bad developing situations.
On one occasion I called "mine" on landing to save the aeroplane.
If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.
I often fly RH with new/low hour pilots. On a few occasions simply suggesting what to do has been sufficient to straighten out bad developing situations.
On one occasion I called "mine" on landing to save the aeroplane.
Avoid imitations
Joined: Nov 2000
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From: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
This was twenty years ago but I haven't forgotten.
I was then (in a previous military life) a QHI but on this occasion acting as co-pilot in a 7 tonne helicopter which was being hovered at about 8,000 feet (or should have been), towards the end of a long night's work. It was an operational job over what was not a very friendly place at all.
All of us were very tired, we had been working hard all night. The handling pilot (who happened to have previously been one of my students on that type of helicopter) inadvertantly let the aircraft descend with no airspeed, possibly with slightly negative airspeed, until I recognised that we had suddenly entered full vortex ring state (aircraft out of control, randomly pitching, rolling, yawing; a similar situation to a fixed wing full stall but with a higher ROD and no self recovery likely). We were descending at an increasing rate (VSI needle on the bottom stop, which meant well over 2,500 fpm). The situation could only end in disaster. I called "airspeed" (it was still zero). No response came. I called "AIRSPEED" but still no positive recovery action was taken. Knowing that we would soon crash, I put my hand on the back of the cyclic and pushed it fully forward. Thankfully, the nose went down and the IAS responded quickly (it doesn't always in this condition) and the aircraft shuddered and began to fly again.
We had lost two thirds of our altitude in a few seconds. The handling pilot regained control and we decided it was time to go home; the job was cold anyway. It was a quiet ride home.
I'd do the same again for anybody but I'd prefer it if they took the necessary actions themselves.
I was then (in a previous military life) a QHI but on this occasion acting as co-pilot in a 7 tonne helicopter which was being hovered at about 8,000 feet (or should have been), towards the end of a long night's work. It was an operational job over what was not a very friendly place at all.
All of us were very tired, we had been working hard all night. The handling pilot (who happened to have previously been one of my students on that type of helicopter) inadvertantly let the aircraft descend with no airspeed, possibly with slightly negative airspeed, until I recognised that we had suddenly entered full vortex ring state (aircraft out of control, randomly pitching, rolling, yawing; a similar situation to a fixed wing full stall but with a higher ROD and no self recovery likely). We were descending at an increasing rate (VSI needle on the bottom stop, which meant well over 2,500 fpm). The situation could only end in disaster. I called "airspeed" (it was still zero). No response came. I called "AIRSPEED" but still no positive recovery action was taken. Knowing that we would soon crash, I put my hand on the back of the cyclic and pushed it fully forward. Thankfully, the nose went down and the IAS responded quickly (it doesn't always in this condition) and the aircraft shuddered and began to fly again.
We had lost two thirds of our altitude in a few seconds. The handling pilot regained control and we decided it was time to go home; the job was cold anyway. It was a quiet ride home.
I'd do the same again for anybody but I'd prefer it if they took the necessary actions themselves.
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From: Escapee from Ultima Thule
I have no qualms about taking over *if* I see a dangerous or stupid event about to occur. Of course the usual pre-emptive dialogue first if time. If the pilot really wants to push it to the authorities with language about piracy, unlawful interference and the like then a countervailing complaint will be made about acting in a reckless manner, endangering lives, not observing the limitations of the aircraft or breaking the rules, as appropriate.
I'd say I'm well within my rights to protect myself from injury if the other seat acts inappropriately. Consider this: In the few known or suspected multi-crew flights where the PIC has gone off the rails and tried/succeeded in crashing the plane, is it still unlawful interference if the PIC insists it's his/her aircraft while other crewmembers attempt to wrest control?
I'd say I'm well within my rights to protect myself from injury if the other seat acts inappropriately. Consider this: In the few known or suspected multi-crew flights where the PIC has gone off the rails and tried/succeeded in crashing the plane, is it still unlawful interference if the PIC insists it's his/her aircraft while other crewmembers attempt to wrest control?
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Good to know. Next time I fly sleaztjet and I don't like the way the aircraft is being flown I shall be secure in the knowledge I can just pop up front and seize control. I shall also bear it in mind when I am at work that any of my passengers are within there rights to seize control if they don't like my flying.
I shall of course point at the sage wisdom in this thread to prove it's all OK.
I shall of course point at the sage wisdom in this thread to prove it's all OK.
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From: bath/bristol
I'd say I'm well within my rights to protect myself from injury if the other seat acts inappropriately. Consider this: In the few known or suspected multi-crew flights where the PIC has gone off the rails and tried/succeeded in crashing the plane, is it still unlawful interference if the PIC insists it's his/her aircraft while other crewmembers attempt to wrest control?
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From: In the boot of my car!
I shall of course point at the sage wisdom in this thread to prove it's all OK.
Sorry I cannot see your comparison to multi crew flying. All I can tell you is that in my time flying I can assure you that there have been many occasions where I have had to do something which could have ended up with me holding the can as you put it.
To date I dont regret one intervention but I would have done if I had done nothing as some were very serious situations indeed.
Pace
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Intervening to prevent a situation deteriorating is a very different thing to wresting or seizing control of an aircraft from the lawful commander.
The comparison to multi crew flying stands. If we are claiming that if we don't like the way the aircraft is being flown and fear for our lives being a pilot gives us the right to seize or wrest control from the legitimate commander.
I would argue that you would need to have really solid grounds in order to do so and be able to prove back on the ground that you were within your rights to do so. Thinking that you know more than the pilot in command just because you are pilot yourself in my humble opinion does not give those grounds.
Try it on my aircraft and and see what happens.......
intervention |ˌintərˈven sh ən|
noun
the action or process of intervening : they are plants that grow naturally without human intervention.
• interference by a country in another's affairs : the administration was reported to be considering military intervention.
• action taken to improve a situation, esp. a medical disorder : two patients were referred for surgical intervention.
wrest |rest|
verb [ trans. ]
forcibly pull (something) from a person's grasp : Leila tried to wrest her arm from his hold.
• take (something, esp. power or control) from someone or something else after considerable effort or difficulty : they wanted to allow people to wrest control of their lives from impersonal bureaucracies.
• archaic distort the meaning or interpretation of (something) to suit one's own interests or views : you appear convinced of my guilt, and wrest every reply I have made.
seize |sēz|
verb
1 [ trans. ] take hold of suddenly and forcibly : she jumped up and seized his arm | she seized hold of the door handle.
The comparison to multi crew flying stands. If we are claiming that if we don't like the way the aircraft is being flown and fear for our lives being a pilot gives us the right to seize or wrest control from the legitimate commander.
I would argue that you would need to have really solid grounds in order to do so and be able to prove back on the ground that you were within your rights to do so. Thinking that you know more than the pilot in command just because you are pilot yourself in my humble opinion does not give those grounds.
Try it on my aircraft and and see what happens.......
intervention |ˌintərˈven sh ən|
noun
the action or process of intervening : they are plants that grow naturally without human intervention.
• interference by a country in another's affairs : the administration was reported to be considering military intervention.
• action taken to improve a situation, esp. a medical disorder : two patients were referred for surgical intervention.
wrest |rest|
verb [ trans. ]
forcibly pull (something) from a person's grasp : Leila tried to wrest her arm from his hold.
• take (something, esp. power or control) from someone or something else after considerable effort or difficulty : they wanted to allow people to wrest control of their lives from impersonal bureaucracies.
• archaic distort the meaning or interpretation of (something) to suit one's own interests or views : you appear convinced of my guilt, and wrest every reply I have made.
seize |sēz|
verb
1 [ trans. ] take hold of suddenly and forcibly : she jumped up and seized his arm | she seized hold of the door handle.
Joined: Jan 2001
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From: In the boot of my car!
One situation I had was riding right seat in a Seneca Five with an elderly experienced pilot in the left.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.
We were attempting a cloud break from IMC OCAS and I was checking the map for terrain heights etc.
I felt a G force stomach wrench and on looking up saw the AH almost vertical. I shouted a warning to level the wings as the VSI was fast on the way down too.
The bemused P1 who had totally confused himself on the AH indications went the wrong way and almost attempted to invert the twin.
I knocked his hands away from the controls levelled the wings and recovered from the dive all IMC on instruments.
So yes there are circumstances where you have to do something fast especially when you realise the pilot has lost the plot or has made a grave error.
I cannot believe your arguement! Either I am not understanding what you are saying or you are on some sort of ego trip.
The above situation really did happen with me in the right hand seat and the commander (LEGAL) in the left! Had I followed your line I would without doubt not have been here now to write this.
Legalities pilot terrorism or whatever would have been pretty irrelevant! but hey ho whatever makes you happy i am sure you are sure you are right.
Pace
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From: Ontario, Canada
All I can tell you is that in my time flying I can assure you that there have been many occasions where I have had to do something which could have ended up with me holding the can as you put it.
To date I dont regret one intervention but I would have done if I had done nothing as some were very serious situations indeed.
To date I dont regret one intervention but I would have done if I had done nothing as some were very serious situations indeed.
Added to which, I can easily imagine a situation where the bad thing happened, and other other pilot says back to me, why did you not try to help?
I would rather stand accused of doing something within my skill set, than nothing!
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From: Abroad
Bit like this one here.But in your case I would probably stick to instructing or whatever it is you do... can't see you having much of a legal career. Just imagine the expression on the judge's face as you're accusing your mate of committing terrorism on your C172
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From: USA
Asking when to take control is somewhat like asking about what constitutes pornography: the answer will generally be "I can't tell you, but I know it when I see it."
Taking control of the aircraft depends on the circumstance. It's a very small thing for a flight instructor to step in with a student and assist or take the airplane; it's expected, and happens frequently; especially in the early stages of learning to fly. It's an entirely different matter for a professional first officer or captain to take control from another pilot.
A nearly universally-taught concept involves the challenge and response rule: if a warning is given to the flying pilot "Airspeed!" and there's no response, a second warning is given. If there's no response, the pilot not flying should consider taking control and fixing the situation, assuming incapacitation of the other pilot. Obviously this must be tempered by the situation and considered in context. One doesn't simply take control because the other pilot had a mouth full of samosa or tuna fish sandwhich. One doens't take control because the other pilot is coughing up some Pepsi that went down the wrong pipe. There is a time and a place for everything.
That's a dangerous, blanket statement, and inherently untrue. Interfering with a crewmember in the performance of his or her duties is an unlawful offense, however, taking control of the airplane to right a poor situation is not at all the same thing. One doesn't need to be in a position where life and limb are threatened before taking control.
A SIC taking control of the airplane is not the same as a passenger sitting in a pilot seat, and attempting to take control. The SIC is there to back up the PIC, and to take control in the event the PIC is unable (for any reason). A SIC taking control of the airplane is a routine, natural act, and not necessarily an "act of terrorisim."
Semantics. Do we shoot someone or simply ventilate their carcass? Do we jump off a bridge, or simply blend with gravity for a short time? Do we take control, or do we wrest control? Same thing.
Come now; let us not speak stupidly.
One cannot make a comparison between a crewmember taking control, and a passenger taking control of an aircraft. One of the duties of a crewmember is to take control at any time that such action becomes necessary (by agreement, or otherwise, depending on the circumstance). Conversely, if you're doing something so egregious that someone on your flight must take control from you, then more power to them, and you can thank them later.
As an instructor and check airman, I've taken control of an airplane when someone else is flying on many occasions. As a professional pilot operating as captain and first officer, I've taken control directly, wresting it from the other pilot in a working operation, only a few times. Two times decisively that I can remember, and several other times when intervention was necessary but I didn't actually take the airplane from the pilot flying. As a passenger, I don't recall ever having to take the aircraft from someone, thus far.
I was assigned to babysit an inexperineced captain in a Learjet 35A on a short two and a half hour cross country flight. He bore close watching, and was far from top-shelf material. While approaching Portland, Oregon we were given a clearance to descend and maintain 12,000', and slow to 210 knots. He thumbed out the speed brakes, putting his thumb through the guard that covered the speed brake switch, and blocking them from being retracted. He retarded power to idle and began his descent. We had a fairly high rate of descent, and as we slowed in the descent, he missed his airspeed. I called "Airspeed!" with no response, followed by "Airspeed! Airspeed! Airspeed!"
Approaching his altitude he showed no signs of reducing his rate of descent, and I called "Altitude!" No response, followed by "Altitude! Altitude! Altitude!" No response.
His speed deteriorated past our minimum clean (flaps up, gear up) speed of 180 knots, and I pried his thumb off the speed brakes and retracted them while applying power and pitching up. He immediately extended the brakes again and retarded power to idle, while staring forward out the windscreen. We were IMC in icing conditions.
Approaching from the east, numerous big hills (Cascade Mountains) are in the area, including Mt. Hood and Mt. Rainer. Going low is bad, especially in instrument conditions. I had to force the thrust levers forward and lock my arm behind them, as he was pulling them hard to idle, and completely unresponsive to my calls "Airspeed! Altitude! Airspeed! Altitude!" He was trying hard to prevent me from stowing the speed brakes, and kept trying to re-extend them. I physically forced him off the controls, regained control, and recovered the airplane to the proper airspeed and altitude.
When I had the airplane stabilized, I engaged the autopilot and took a big breath. He slowly turned and looked at me for a moment before saying "You don't have to shout." On the ground I told him I would fly home, and I did.
That particular occasion was indeed a matter of potential life and limb, but even without the big hills nearby, it was a matter of legality and safety. I wouldn't have allowed the situation to deteriorate regardles of my title or assignment on the flight. Captain, FO, or passenger, I'd have prevented the situation from getting worse.
Numerous fatalities and crashes have occurred because someone allowed someone else to kill them. The 1990 crash of Avianca 52 occurred because the crew wasn't assertive enough with ATC, and the FO wasn't assertive enough with the captain, to communicate their lack of fuel. Many examples can be found when someone on board knew it was going poorly and didn't do anything. Taking control of the situation isn't a bad thing, nor is it a terrorist act. It may very well be the act of a guardian angel.
Taking control of the aircraft depends on the circumstance. It's a very small thing for a flight instructor to step in with a student and assist or take the airplane; it's expected, and happens frequently; especially in the early stages of learning to fly. It's an entirely different matter for a professional first officer or captain to take control from another pilot.
A nearly universally-taught concept involves the challenge and response rule: if a warning is given to the flying pilot "Airspeed!" and there's no response, a second warning is given. If there's no response, the pilot not flying should consider taking control and fixing the situation, assuming incapacitation of the other pilot. Obviously this must be tempered by the situation and considered in context. One doesn't simply take control because the other pilot had a mouth full of samosa or tuna fish sandwhich. One doens't take control because the other pilot is coughing up some Pepsi that went down the wrong pipe. There is a time and a place for everything.
Seizing control of an aircraft without the Commanders permission is an act of terrorism and should only be considered in the most extreme of circumstances where life and limb are threatened.
A SIC taking control of the airplane is not the same as a passenger sitting in a pilot seat, and attempting to take control. The SIC is there to back up the PIC, and to take control in the event the PIC is unable (for any reason). A SIC taking control of the airplane is a routine, natural act, and not necessarily an "act of terrorisim."
Intervening to prevent a situation deteriorating is a very different thing to wresting or seizing control of an aircraft from the lawful commander.
Good to know. Next time I fly sleaztjet and I don't like the way the aircraft is being flown I shall be secure in the knowledge I can just pop up front and seize control. I shall also bear it in mind when I am at work that any of my passengers are within there rights to seize control if they don't like my flying.
One cannot make a comparison between a crewmember taking control, and a passenger taking control of an aircraft. One of the duties of a crewmember is to take control at any time that such action becomes necessary (by agreement, or otherwise, depending on the circumstance). Conversely, if you're doing something so egregious that someone on your flight must take control from you, then more power to them, and you can thank them later.
As an instructor and check airman, I've taken control of an airplane when someone else is flying on many occasions. As a professional pilot operating as captain and first officer, I've taken control directly, wresting it from the other pilot in a working operation, only a few times. Two times decisively that I can remember, and several other times when intervention was necessary but I didn't actually take the airplane from the pilot flying. As a passenger, I don't recall ever having to take the aircraft from someone, thus far.
I was assigned to babysit an inexperineced captain in a Learjet 35A on a short two and a half hour cross country flight. He bore close watching, and was far from top-shelf material. While approaching Portland, Oregon we were given a clearance to descend and maintain 12,000', and slow to 210 knots. He thumbed out the speed brakes, putting his thumb through the guard that covered the speed brake switch, and blocking them from being retracted. He retarded power to idle and began his descent. We had a fairly high rate of descent, and as we slowed in the descent, he missed his airspeed. I called "Airspeed!" with no response, followed by "Airspeed! Airspeed! Airspeed!"
Approaching his altitude he showed no signs of reducing his rate of descent, and I called "Altitude!" No response, followed by "Altitude! Altitude! Altitude!" No response.
His speed deteriorated past our minimum clean (flaps up, gear up) speed of 180 knots, and I pried his thumb off the speed brakes and retracted them while applying power and pitching up. He immediately extended the brakes again and retarded power to idle, while staring forward out the windscreen. We were IMC in icing conditions.
Approaching from the east, numerous big hills (Cascade Mountains) are in the area, including Mt. Hood and Mt. Rainer. Going low is bad, especially in instrument conditions. I had to force the thrust levers forward and lock my arm behind them, as he was pulling them hard to idle, and completely unresponsive to my calls "Airspeed! Altitude! Airspeed! Altitude!" He was trying hard to prevent me from stowing the speed brakes, and kept trying to re-extend them. I physically forced him off the controls, regained control, and recovered the airplane to the proper airspeed and altitude.
When I had the airplane stabilized, I engaged the autopilot and took a big breath. He slowly turned and looked at me for a moment before saying "You don't have to shout." On the ground I told him I would fly home, and I did.
That particular occasion was indeed a matter of potential life and limb, but even without the big hills nearby, it was a matter of legality and safety. I wouldn't have allowed the situation to deteriorate regardles of my title or assignment on the flight. Captain, FO, or passenger, I'd have prevented the situation from getting worse.
Numerous fatalities and crashes have occurred because someone allowed someone else to kill them. The 1990 crash of Avianca 52 occurred because the crew wasn't assertive enough with ATC, and the FO wasn't assertive enough with the captain, to communicate their lack of fuel. Many examples can be found when someone on board knew it was going poorly and didn't do anything. Taking control of the situation isn't a bad thing, nor is it a terrorist act. It may very well be the act of a guardian angel.
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From: ESMM
Losing Control
As an Atco i would say, the second I feel "uncomfortable", I'll take hotseat. It´s my papers. As an ATCO we make a "contract" that says its no problem if I interfere.
The first sign of uncomfortable, you take the charge
The first sign of uncomfortable, you take the charge
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From: In the boot of my car!
A nearly universally-taught concept involves the challenge and response rule: if a warning is given to the flying pilot "Airspeed!" and there's no response, a second warning is given. If there's no response, the pilot not flying should consider taking control and fixing the situation, assuming incapacitation of the other pilot. Obviously this must be tempered by the situation and considered in context. One doesn't simply take control because the other pilot had a mouth full of samosa or tuna fish sandwhich. One doens't take control because the other pilot is coughing up some Pepsi that went down the wrong pipe. There is a time and a place for everything
Airspeed is one good example. You are right seat monitoring an approach in bad weather. The handling pilot is stressed trying to keep his eyes on the runway from a left base join. You notice that he is not monitoring the airspeed which is falling away fast while the handling pilot has almost gone through the centreline and is increasing bank to hold it.
You warn him about the airspeed you warn him about the bank angle.The airspeed continues to deteriorate and the bank angle continues to increase.
You warn again this time with more urgency no response no actions to rectify.
At what point do you consider the handling pilot is incapaciated or incapable and do something other than shouting warnings to rectify the situation.
In the PPL world there is a much larger variation of pilot skills ability and experience than in commercially rated pilots so more chance that an intervention maybe required.
No one is advocating the picture of two alert capable pilots fighting over the controls because one thinks he knows better but more a handling pilot who for whatever reason is incapable of rectifying a serious situation having another pilot who is capable doing it for him and averting a serious accident.
I appreciate you do get type A personalities flying together where there is a continual battle over who is the best and where one is trying to undermine the other. The I can land better than you so I will intervene at the slightest provocation to prove my superiority But that is NOT what we are discusssing here.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 20th January 2011 at 07:02.
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From: USA
At what point do you consider the pilot incapacitated?
"Airspeed!" (no response)
"Airspeed!" (no response)
"I have the controls."
At what point do you consider the handling pilot is incapaciated or incapable and do something other than shouting warnings to rectify the situation.
Again, as previously described, one must temper that action with personal knowledge of the situation. If one's cohort in crime has a mouth full of egg salad, perhaps there's a perfectly valid reason why one hasn't received a verbal response. One may see a hand gesture instead, or a nod. The concept fo the two challenge rule is that if the flying pilot hasn't acknowledged the error and indicated a trend to correcting it after the second challenge, then incapacitation is assumed, barring any other indication from that pilot.
In our operation, for example, airspeed below the bugged airspeed is a mandatory call-out, which is simply "Airspeed." The expected response from the other pilot is "correcting." In fact, the response from the pilot flying to any deviation call by the other pilot is "correcting." Making this response is important; it lets the pilot making the deviation call know he's been heard, and that the other pilot understands the situation, agrees, and is doing something about it.
Making this challenge isn't necessary, of course, when flying single pilot in one's Cessna 172, but then the original poster asked specifically about a crew situation, or environments that resemble a crew situation.
Incapacitation does not need to be a pilot collapsing at the controls but can mean a pilot failing for whatever reason to correct a quickly deteriorating situation.
I had a similar experience with the same individual a couple of months later. On very short notice, I was asked to fly right seat for him, because he was assigned a trip to Los Angeles. LA is a busy place, and he was very intimidated at the idea of landing at LAX. He had to be hand-held for the entire taxi, one turn at a time, and was scared to death. When leaving LAX, the frequency is busy enough that one reads back only one's transponder code when picking up the IFR clearance. Nothing more. This level of frequency congestion and ground activity intimidated him even more.
When we were cleared to cross runway 25L, for some inexplicable reason he stopped on the runway. He seemed very confused, and had a mental vapor lock. He stopped the airplane, and decided to park it there until he was clear on where to go. I think he was afraid of inadvertantly entering a runway, but didn't seem to understand that he was parked on the runway with traffic holding in position. The controller queried us twice as to our intent,then asked if we could make an intersection departure on Taxiway Golf. I replied affirmative, directed the intrepid aviator to make a left 90 degree turn, and finished the checklist.
As he began his takeoff roll, just before the airspeed came alive, we got a door light. I pointed to the light and stated "Reject, Reject Reject!" He didn't show any sign of having heard me, or intending to comply. I checked the door visually, noted the handle in position, and knew that the door was locked, and that the indication had to be a switch on the handle; I knew the door was safe. I wasn't going to fight him into a high speed rejected takeoff, so we continued. When I called the V1, VR, and Rotate, he rotated normally, but didn't respond to my gear calls. I called positive climb twice, then got the gear myself. I called the flap speeds, he failed to respond, and I retracted them while lowering the nose slightly to accelerate. After we were cleaned up and climbing, I again pointed to the annunciator panel and said "Do you see that we have a door open light?"
He had a fit. He yanked the power to idle, banked hard to the left, and prepared to do a tight turn back to our departure runway. I took control of the airplane immediately. I asked him what he was doing, and he said we obviously had an emergency, and he was returning to land. I asked him if he really intended to make an unannounced return to a busy runway with opposite direction traffic, and he asked what we should do. I told him we'd continue the departure until at altitude and out of the terminal area, then I'd check the door, which we did. Upon our return to home plate, I advised the Chief Pilot that I'd not be flying with that individual ever again, and strongly urged that the company consider finding someone else to accept that paycheck.
Unconscious? No. Incapacitated? Yes. In retrospect, of course, I shouldn't have departed at all with that individual, and given his actions on our first flight, I probably shouldn't have flown with him again, at all. When I returned and served notice that I wouldn't fly with him again, I was advised that everyone else had done the same thing, and the only person willing to fly with him any more was the Chief Pilot.
The necessity to take control, or the wisdom to do so, may take many forms, and one must consider the specific circumstances. One must also be unwilling to hesitate when the moment arrives, and thoughts of air piracy must be the very last thing on one's mind. It's all about safety of flight.
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From: London
I am just a plain vanilla ppl with a tiny bit of experience.
If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.
If I am PIC and am flying with a respected more experienced pilot or instructor friend and he calls my aeroplane I would have no problems releasing comand. We can discuss on the ground. Not happened so far.
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From: In the boot of my car!
JollyRog
Sadly both pilots were mentally incapacitated on that flight its almost unbelievable?
They set off for a VFR flight to a destination below IFR limits with no fuel even for a diversion and no instrumentation ??? then they ask for an SRA with overcast 100 feet???
What more can you say other than unbelievable
Pace
Sadly both pilots were mentally incapacitated on that flight its almost unbelievable?
They set off for a VFR flight to a destination below IFR limits with no fuel even for a diversion and no instrumentation ??? then they ask for an SRA with overcast 100 feet???
What more can you say other than unbelievable
Pace
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From: Inverness-shire
As a gliding instructor I've had to do a fair amount of stick snatching - usually when Bloggs was about to start rounding out at about minus 5 feet - but both parties expect that kind of thing!
But BGA accident analyses often state "Instructor failed to take over in time". It can be a very fine line between waiting to see if Bloggs will sort out the situation and taking over too soon.
In a P28 in Africa the owner once took it off me in a big hurry when I was happily closing-in on a thermalling vulture (to me circling birds = lift = go to them!!!!) I certainly had no problem with that!
There have however been a number of major accidents, including the 1977 Tenerife disaster where a pilot (normally the copilot) hesitated to override the handling pilot (normally the Captain) when he saw something going wrong.
The question therefore is - a) how many accidents have resulted from the other pilot taking over compared with b) how many accidents have resulted from his not taking over? I suspect that b) will be in the majority.
But BGA accident analyses often state "Instructor failed to take over in time". It can be a very fine line between waiting to see if Bloggs will sort out the situation and taking over too soon.
In a P28 in Africa the owner once took it off me in a big hurry when I was happily closing-in on a thermalling vulture (to me circling birds = lift = go to them!!!!) I certainly had no problem with that!
There have however been a number of major accidents, including the 1977 Tenerife disaster where a pilot (normally the copilot) hesitated to override the handling pilot (normally the Captain) when he saw something going wrong.
The question therefore is - a) how many accidents have resulted from the other pilot taking over compared with b) how many accidents have resulted from his not taking over? I suspect that b) will be in the majority.