N850TV impounded at BHX
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Flybe aircraft told to line up, with another aircraft on 5 mile final (regular occurence at any airport). Comms lost with aircraft on approach.
Or... the Flybe may have been given a line up after clearance and our infringing ac may have been number 2 on approach and after the landing of number 1 Flybe mistook it for his conditional subject??
Crossed wires somewhere no doubt... will be interesting to find out what actually happend.
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...I should have thought that the landing ac would have followed some sort lost coms procedure...
PM
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But would the landing ac have been given a landing clearance if the flybe was told to line up? I don't think short finals makes a difference in the absence of actually being cleared to land: No landing clearance, no landing unless an emergancy landing is being conducted IMHO. Also, was the landing ac flying an instrument or visual approach? 5 mile final is roughly around the OM is it not? Is this 'short finals'?
Of course, all of the above is just my own views as a lowly PPL holder, but I am quite interested in this case.
Of course, all of the above is just my own views as a lowly PPL holder, but I am quite interested in this case.
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You would like to think any pilot with an inch of sense would have gone around. I find its unlikely the landing aircraft didnt see the Dash its not exactly a microlight! However if I was of fire or had to land asap for some reason I would consider a land over. But not for comms failiure!
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Some facts for you all.
TBM went to ground freq. instead of tower when instructed.
TBM was never cleared to land.
TBM was doing an NDB/DME approach with a 6 Deg off set.
Flybe crew were cleared to line up by tower.
If the TBM had have been on the tower freq. I expect he would have been told to continue the approach there is one aircraft to depart.
Finally the flybe crew would have had the TBM on TCAS and lining up infront of an aircraft on 5 miles is the norm at BHX.
Some posts would be suprised for a professional pilot to see an aircraft on a runway and land over it.
Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.
And when I say overloaded I don't mean heavy.
The facts are that the TBM pilot didn't see the dash and DID fly directly over it and land.
Simples
How do I know all this?
Simples
TBM went to ground freq. instead of tower when instructed.
TBM was never cleared to land.
TBM was doing an NDB/DME approach with a 6 Deg off set.
Flybe crew were cleared to line up by tower.
If the TBM had have been on the tower freq. I expect he would have been told to continue the approach there is one aircraft to depart.
Finally the flybe crew would have had the TBM on TCAS and lining up infront of an aircraft on 5 miles is the norm at BHX.
Some posts would be suprised for a professional pilot to see an aircraft on a runway and land over it.
Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.
And when I say overloaded I don't mean heavy.
The facts are that the TBM pilot didn't see the dash and DID fly directly over it and land.
Simples
How do I know all this?
Simples
Last edited by redflyer; 16th Jan 2011 at 18:36.
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if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.
Let me let you into a few dirty little secrets of flying planes (which you wouldn't know unless you fly them, of course, and I don't mean C152s)
In a plane with even 25% of the cockpit automation of a TBM850 (and I flew a brand spanking new 850 with a Socata factory instructor a few months ago, and I have 1100hrs in another little GA plane with about 75% of the cockpit automation of the TBM) any instrument approach is a doddle.
An NDB/DME approach is (in real IMC) flown with autopilot guidance along the NDB inbound track, with the guidance coming from a GPS. All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).
As for the rest, if it's true he should not have landed without a landing clearance; that is clear.
But there could easily be more to the story. He might have been at his alternate, in which case a landing might not be optional. There is also the IFR lost comms procedure. When exactly did the other aircraft line up, and was it on the runway, or holding short of it?
Just don't go slagging off single pilot GA
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All the pilot does is VNAV, and speed control, flaps, gear, comms. Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).
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Pilot flying/handling pilot must fly the approach with only sole reference to the ADF.
The non flying pilot/pilot monitoring is however allowed to display the FMS overlay on their own individual EFIS display....purely to monitor the ADF/FMS tracks and call out any discrepencies that may be apparent.
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guess whoever wrote the ops manual is really proud of that. Lenin (living in the same era) would have been proud of him - except Lenin was a lot more pragmatic.
And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded.
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Nobody flying for real tracks NDBs, in the current century (airlines certainly don't).
And of course if the ADF says you are OK but the FMS says you are all going to die, the FMS is disregarded.
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How do I know all this? Simples
Fly Conventional Gear
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Firstly, you can act as professionally as you like but if you are an overloaded single pilot doing an NDB/DME approach to an international airport the chances are you will f1_1ck up.
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If Redflyer is a Flybe pilot he/she should not be writing this kind of garbage about IFR GA. This kind of prejudice doesn't do anybody any good, although it isn't uncommon within the "gold plated pilot" community and probably explains a lot of regulatory difficulties elsewhere to which nobody will own up publicly.
A TBM850 has better kit than a Dash 8, in all probability.
Of course multi crew ops are safer than single crew ops but what he/she wrote is just garbage, in the context of an appropriately equipped aircraft. The C152 someone might do their IMCR in is something else, but this was a TBM.
Yes, of course. I was kind of making the point that there are plenty of coastal NDB approaches on which you get a 20-30 degree error, which starts at not much at say 10D, reaches the 20-30 degrees at say 3D, and then disappears at say 1-2D but by then if you blindly tracked the ADF (as you are supposed to on your IR initial) you are so far off track by the time you get visual at the MDA that you will have some fun getting in. I have spoken to loads of airline pilots about this in person and generally their SOP is to check the ADF at the FAF only and then track the FMS inbound, and the NDB has to be idented, apparently functioning (not that you can actually tell), and not notamed as INOP. One Dash 8 pilot, non UK, I spoke to a few months ago does exactly this, for VOR and NDB approaches, but they don't even need to check the navaid indication at the FAF; it merely needs to be idented and not notamed INOP.
A TBM850 has better kit than a Dash 8, in all probability.
Of course multi crew ops are safer than single crew ops but what he/she wrote is just garbage, in the context of an appropriately equipped aircraft. The C152 someone might do their IMCR in is something else, but this was a TBM.
If you T,I,M the navaid before starting the procedure whilst flying the FMS track then any discrepency should be obvious prior to descending below MSA.
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Lets assume I am a pilot. Lets assume I work for flybe. Let's assume I know the crew.