Making blind calls to "Traffic"

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by SlipSlider

The appropriate use of aircraft type is very sensible and CAP413 already states this:

However, as ever, brevity is of the essence, hence "Cessna G-ABCD" is useful, but "Rheims Cessna F152 Aerobat G-ABCD" may be deemed a little too much info on every call

Can be handy to know if it's a Cessna 152 or a Cessna Citation!....or a Piper Dakota vs Douglas Dakota.....or, or.... :-)

[patowalker]

"Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, FINAL Runway 09" seems pretty clear to me.

If someone is going to use their callsign, why not include the aircraft type?

'cause he included the aircraft type when joined the circuit, in accordance with CAP 413.

[SNS3Guppy]

Of course, everybody on the radio heard that first transmission too, didn't they?

Use the airport identification at the beginning and end of every transmission, but don't bother to identify the aircraft save for once when entering the traffic pattern? You don't see a possible break in the logic, there?

How much more difficult is it to identify the aircraft when using the callsign? Skyhawk G-ABCD is harder than G-ABCD?

Because the local standard phraseology is designed differently and CAP413 sets out the phrases to be used in the UK.

You should know, as a professional pilot, that the purpose of having standard phrases is to achieve standardisation and increased comprehension. Tenerife in 1977 taught us the importance of that.

I do know that as a professional pilot, and I also know that CAP413 directs you to identify the aircraft type as part of your callsign, as Slipslider has noted. Do you know that?

[patowalker]

and I also know that CAP413 directs you to identify the aircraft type as part of your callsign

Not on Safetycom:

6.3 Unattended Aerodrome Phraseology Examples
...
Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, 10 miles
southwest JOINING OVERHEAD

Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, Overhead
joining for Runway 09 (if
determined)
This transmission is optional and may be
advisable depending on other traffic in the
vicinity

Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, Dead side
descending Runway 09
This transmission is optional and may be
advisable depending on other traffic in the
vicinity

Borton Traffic, G-ABCD,
DOWNWIND (Right-hand if
applicable) Runway 09 (Intentions if
applicable)

Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, BASE LEG
Runway 09
This transmission is optional and may be
advisable depending on other traffic in the
vicinity

Borton Traffic, G-ABCD, FINAL
Runway 09

[vee-tail-1]

Oh dear! Its very British to prefer to obey rules, rather than achieve the spirit of regulations.

As regards safetycom:

It's common sense to give Location before and after the message. And it's common sense to give r/w & traffic info from the ground if someone needs it.

The French have been doing it that way on 123.5 for years.

[Joao da Silva]

Mr Guppy

Now Patowalker has posted the reference, do you get it?

[patowalker]

It's common sense to give Location before and after the message.
...
The French have been doing it that way on 123.5 for years.

Not so. I had to learn to use 123.5 before the DGAC issued my licence.

[SNS3Guppy]

Now Patowalker has posted the reference, do you get it?

Patowalker didn't post a reference or citation; he copied a few lines.

Get what, exactly? At what point in the information posted is the aviator directed not to include the airport name during each transmission? Where is the user expressely told not to do so? Where is the user told not to use the aircraft type in each transmission?

Oh dear! Its very British to prefer to obey rules, rather than achieve the spirit of regulations.

Quite, but where the the rule advising against or prohibiting using one's aircraft type along with the callsign, and announcing the airport at the beginning and end of each transmission. Nothing about being British or conforming to LASORS (or CAP413, for that matter) would lead one to do otherwise.

CAP 413, Chapter 2, 1.8.2 (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/cap413.pdf) does say:

"The name of either the aircraft manufacturer, or name of aircraft model, or name ofnthe aircraft category (e.g. helicopter or gyrocopter) may be used as a prefix to the callsign."

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1615/safetycom_review.pdf

The Safetycom Review Final makes the following comment regarding use of the aircraft location in each transmission:

"Because SAFETYCOM operates on a single frequency throughout the UK it is vital that pilots include the location at which they are operating, otherwise the information they transmit is useless to other pilots. All transmissions on SAFETYCOM should start with the phrase ‘XXXXX Traffic’, as explained in Chapter 4 of CAP 413 (Radiotelephony Manual) and Safety Sense Leaflet 22, which is published in LASORS."

Is it really such a stretch to see that the transmission is wisely ended with the airport identification, as well?

The Safetycom Review Final goes on to state:

"The importance of including the location in transmissions made on SAFETYCOM will be strongly emphasised in future information regarding the frequency."

Regarding using the radio to look for traffic, as some are wont to do, the same Review Final states:

"Pilots should also be aware that non-radio equipped aircraft operate widely in the UK’s uncontrolled airspace, and SAFETYCOM is not a substitute for good lookout, but an addition to it, to be used only within 10nm of the aerodrome and below a height of 2000ft above the aerodrome elevation. It is for the pilot to decide on the most appropriate frequency in the circumstances of the flight. Pilots should also be aware that not all other aircraft will be operating on the same frequency. As ever, good lookout is essential and SAFETYCOM is only an addition to this."

CAP 413, Chapter 4, 6.1.4 states:

"All transmissions at unattended aerodromes shall be addressed to '(Aerodromename) Traffic'. No reply to an unattended aerodrome report shall be transmitted."

Note this is all transmissions; all transmissions will include the airport name.

Perhaps most importantly, 6.1.6 states:

"Unattended aerodrome reports are made at the discretion of the pilot. However, to ensure the traffic awareness of other pilots is correctly maintained, if a pilot elects to make reports, all those reports not listed as ‘optional’ should be included. Optional calls (illustrated in paragraph 6.3) may be included if additional traffic information is likely to assist traffic organisation or to enhance safety."

While British compunction may insist on adherence to regulation and rules, CAP 413 specifically states that calls are at the discretion of the pilot.

Unless frequency congestion dictates otherwise, there's no good reason why one shouldn't use the aircraft type or identification in the callsign, and end it with the airport location.

Yes, I do get it.

[Joao da Silva]

Standard phraseology, unicomm or safetycom, is a good thing.

If the UK authorities felt that adding the aerodrome name at the need was helpful, they would advise this, if the USA authorities did not wish this, they would remove it. Maybe CAP413 will add 'aerodrome name traffic' in the future and then it will be standard.

The standard phraseology differs, but is effective, because everyone can learn it and communicate better. If I fly in the US, I revise a US reference and run through it with an instructor, likewise for the UK.

When people start to do their own thing, it goes wrong. There is no place for a 'not made here' orientation, in my opinion.

Local arrangements work, let's use them as promulgated.

On the other hand, if one genuinely feels that an improvement can be made, contact the local authorities and explain why, they may take it on board in the future.

For clarity (and having attended UK school from age 5 to 18, so being a native level speaker of the British variety of English), I would point out that you appear to have misinterpreted the use of a word in your assertion "While British compunction may insist on adherence to regulation and rules, CAP 413 specifically states that calls are at the discretion of the pilot."

This means that it is at the pilot's discretion to make or not make the call. That is all it means and it is not a licence to make up your own phraseology.

[SNS3Guppy]

How ironic it is to see you fight from the opposite corner! Only a very short while ago, you were the objecting to a pilot including one word extra (i.e. "visual") in a response to traffic information from ATC!

My position on the subject has never changed, and I'm not familiar with this disparity of which you speak I suspect that you simply misunderstood whatever was said. Perhaps you can cite a reference.

This means that it is at the pilot's discretion to make or not make the call. That is all it means and it is not a licence to make up your own phraseology.

I don't think it can be made any more clear: the Safetycom review, and indeed the CAP 413 manual very clearly states that it's advisable to includethe airport name, as well as the aircraft type in the call. Numerous citations and actual references have been given you. I think vee-tail-1, who stated "Oh dear! Its very British to prefer to obey rules, rather than achieve the spirit of regulations," was very much on the money. Except in this case, even after the very British have been given chapter and verse, the stubbornness simply won't let them believe it. You don't seem to care what is written, just that you do as you think you've been taught.

Being that closed-minded does you very little good.

Perhaps this is but one more case of things being different in the UK...like carburetor heat working differently, mixture adjustment working differently, no need to review or have or understand the aircraft flight manual, no need to preheat, yada, yada, yada. The UK is a special place, apparently, like some geopolitical altered state of reality.

Most interesting.

[RatherBeFlying]

The basic human factor is that the very first few syllables of a radio transmission are not heard, but when you're talking to a tower, everybody in the vicinity already knows who you are talking to.

With shared frequencies, it's more difficult. At my home drome where two nearby airports share the same freq, we have noticed that the two names can sound very much alike and that most of us in the air listen out for the name at the end just to make sure. A few thousand feet up, we also share the freq with apron control at a big airport.

Back when I was learning to fly, I began this process on unicom frequencies without being told to do so by an instructor or reading it in a manual. Now the instructors teach it and it's in the manuals, at least in North America and France.

[mikehallam]

I agree.

When on SafetyCom I find many users do swallow the first vital location word, or perhaps press the tit a split second after they start yakking. Can be scary when loud and can't see anything out the window !

As you're not supposed to ask 'say again', FWIW, I try to speak slowly and clearly and add the strip name at both ends in the hopes it'll catch on.
Seems to be getting better around Sussex (smile).

[Joao da Silva]

CAP 413 manual very clearly states that it's advisable to includethe airport name, as well as the aircraft type in the call.

It does not state it is advisable to include the airport name, it specifies it will be included.

It does not state that it is advisable to include the aircraft type, it specifies that this may be included if it does not cause confusion. That extra identification may also be generic rather than type, i.e. 'helicopter.'

Of course, the aircraft type will be given on initial call to a ground station.

You still do not seem to understand what these British manuals really mean, but I put that down to your North American culture, since that often applies the other way, too.

Coming from a minor European country, I do not have any great sense of righteousness or 'made here' and just get on with trying to fit in with everyone's local ways of working.

If you feel so strongly, why don't you write to the CAA and tell them where they got it wrong?

[CanAmdelta1]

If I am in your airspace near an uncontrolled aerodome, wouldn't you all like to know where I am and what I am flying? I surely would.

It is quite unsettling to transmit "Lindsay traffic Cessna 172 GABC turning 1/2 mile final for r/w 31, Lindsay traffic" and immediately hear someone doing the same behind you. When you ask a/c on final if he heard you say you were on final he says" yea but Im in a helicopter."
Gee would it have broken his heart to say that initially?

Whether it is law or not where you are currently operating an aircraft, it just seems considerate and appropriate airmanship to use the Aerodome at the front and back of transmission and your type.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Excuse me for playing the devil's advocate... but can we try and look at the whole thing the other way around?

At non-controlled airfields, one is in non-controlled airspace. In non-controlled airspace, there is no obligation to carry a radio. Even if one happens to be carried, there is no obligation to actually use it, or even to switch it on. This implies we should always be on the lookout for traffic, because there can always be a NORDO flier around. Whatever IS being said on the radio is a bonus, for which we have to be grateful. If it is complete, and clear, and makes sense, even more gratitude.

[SNS3Guppy]

If you feel so strongly, why don't you write to the CAA and tell them where they got it wrong?

The CAA didn't get it wrong.

You did.

Failing to understand that communication is about clearly transmitting your intents, and understanding from others their intents, you've missed the point of communicating.

If you conform strictly and without intelligent thought to the words you find in CAP 413, disregarding the information which has already been given, you're acting in rote and you're not really communicating. If you're broadcasting your position in a radio call, but others don't know where you are, what have you accomplished? Nothing, except jamming up the radio frequency. If you're broadcasting and someone thinks you're a different aircraft, sees two aircraft on the downwind and thinks you're the helicopter when you're the cessna, or thinks you're the cessna when you're the learjet, clear communication has failed and danger and risk are increased.

Sputtering "but, but, but that's what the CAP 413 told me to do" is useless with a state of failed communication. You seem to revel in ignorance with regard to this subject. Let's repeat it again, then: communication is about communicating. Communication has failed if everyone doesn't get the message and the information, and interpret it correctly. If another listener believes you're at another airfield and plans accordingly, then you've caused confusion. By simply stating the airfield name at the beginning and end of your radio call, you can greatly enhance the communication, and NOTHING in the CAP 413 manual, or the Safetycom Review Final suggests in any way, shape, or form that this should not take place.

Nothing in the CAP 413 manual suggests in any way, shape, or form that one should not cite one's aircraft type when giving one's callsign. In fact, both publications encourage it.

Both publications absolutely insist on citing the aircraft location; it's mandatory on every call. Nothing at all is stopping you from citing it at the end of each transmission, either. Do so subject to radio frequency congestion, as the guidelines you're provided in CAP 413 state to do so when no confusion will exist. If you're stepping on other people, then slow down, reduce the verbiage, and proceed normally. It takes very little time, breath, or effort, however, to include your aircraft type in your transmission, and to end your transmission with the location. Very simple, very approved, and not in the least contrary to regulation, guideline, or the final review summary report for the Safetycom system. In other words, citing your location at the beginning and end, and your aircraft type is approved, accepted, common, wise, and good communications. It's also encouraged. Think about it.

Rather than simply saying "Cessna ABCD," one might consider saying "Skyhawk ABCD," because a Cessna could be anything from a Cessna 120 to a Cessna Citation.

[Joao da Silva]

Guppy

You just don't get it, at all. How many hours have you flown in GA VFR in the UK, as opposed to IFR?

There is a very clear method of using the radio and it works very well, just as Captain Carlsson's approach works very well in the USA.

Writing longer and longer posts still does not make you right

Sometimes it is best to stop digging the hole.

I have to say, as a non UK contributor, that I find the Brits adapt much better than you and your countrymen to taking on board how things work locally.

[SNS3Guppy]

There is a very clear method of using the radio and it works very well, just as Captain Carlsson's approach works very well in the USA.

I have no idea who Captain Carlsson is or where he flies in the USA, but I do know, and have shown that the "very clear method of using the radio" in the UK includes radio calls with the name of the field, and the use of the aircraft type in the callsign. Moreover, unlike others, I actually used references, and links.

Writing longer and longer posts still does not make you right

No. Being right makes me right.

Having already given the links, citations, references, and quotes, it's not really a matter to debate.

There is NOTHING in the Safetycom system which directs the individual to not use the aircraft type and location. There is a clear requirement to use the airport location. There is a strong suggestion to use the aircraft type. This has already been spelled out for you. If you have trouble with the English language, comprehension, or reading skills, you may have missed it.

Then again, you may have missed the fact that there's no requirement to make the radio call in the first place. Accordingly, once having made the call, including pertinent details which enhance good communication, including the airport location (required when making the call, as already proven), and the aircraft type (very much encouraged), is wise, good form, and very appropriate.

I once flew with a dingbat who made position calls along with lines of "Bermuda Dunes Traffic, Cessna is landing." When I asked him where he'd learned such ridiculous position calls, he told me everyone in the area where he learned to fly does the same thing. I asked him if he thought perhaps citing the aircraft type, position in the pattern or relative to the airport, and concluding the call with the airport reference, might not be a good idea. He said no, because everyone did the same thing where he was from, and that was good enough.

You have no need to celebrate ignorance. You might try learning something, if you're able. The life you save...might just be mine.

You're on your own.

I have to say, as a non UK contributor, that I find the Brits adapt much better than you and your countrymen to taking on board how things work locally.

I don't know about that. I operate locally all over the planet. Local to you is local to me, but local to me is also all of Europe, all of Asia, all of the Middle East, all of Africa, Asia, the Pacific, and North and South America. I suppose it's relative, but having to conform "locally" and working "locally" is part of my job. It's just that I have a few more "locally's" than you.

Again, it seems that the UK is special...just like the special carb ice and mixture use that only happens in the UK. Everyone likes to think their little universe is special, and that nobody really understands them. "You just don't get it," they say. Ignorance is bliss. You live in bliss.

You need to get out more.

[patowalker]

Is anybody reminded of Pooh Bah?

[Joao da Silva]

Yes, with a strong blend of 'shout louder so the wop understands.'

Ten to one he has never flown VFR in the UK and probably practices fencing in the cruise - 'en garde.'

I am somewhat surprised that SNS3 Guppy hasn't heard of Captain Carlson, for the benefit of anyone who is going to fly in the USA for the first time, he wrote a book that explains the way comms work across there Amazon.com: Captain Carlson's Airplane Talk: The Complete Book of Vfr and Ifr Communications (9780961195403): Glenn Carlson: Books

When I first flew in the USA, my instructor sent me a copy beforehand and I found it very useful in learning a VFR system that was rather different to my normal experience, but which works very well once you understand it.