How rude
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He landed by cutting in front of me
Larger/faster aircraft will need to fly a larger pattern.
But if you're a slow plane and flown way out there (say more than 1 1/4 miles), most will assume you have left the field.
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glush
While excepting you interpritation of rule 5 I have to ask how a gilder can go around on short final if someone is slow to clear the runway?
A rule that is imposable to comply with is a bad rule and should be changed.
I have no idea what the ATC situation is at the airfield you are flying at and my comments about "land after" instructions were aimed at some of the smaller airfields with full ATC. It could not be otherwise because it takes a full ATC unit to issue such an instruction.
Not withstanding the instruction if you think it is not safe you should go around.
A rule that is imposable to comply with is a bad rule and should be changed.
I have no idea what the ATC situation is at the airfield you are flying at and my comments about "land after" instructions were aimed at some of the smaller airfields with full ATC. It could not be otherwise because it takes a full ATC unit to issue such an instruction.
Not withstanding the instruction if you think it is not safe you should go around.
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A and C
As a small point of order I think it can be misleading to regard a land after clearance as an instruction, because it implies you must land behind the aircraft on the runway. As we know it is wholly up to the pilot to decide whether he considers it safe to land after - in effect it is a "land at your discretion IF you consider you can safely stop before colliding with the aircraft yet to vacate"
and on that topic if a vehicle is checking the runway can AT give a land after clearance? You would have thought so, but you would be wrong.
and back to topic - what service does Leicester offer these days - is it A/g, FICO, or AT?
and Glush did you not want to tell us the type of aircraft you were flying?
As a small point of order I think it can be misleading to regard a land after clearance as an instruction, because it implies you must land behind the aircraft on the runway. As we know it is wholly up to the pilot to decide whether he considers it safe to land after - in effect it is a "land at your discretion IF you consider you can safely stop before colliding with the aircraft yet to vacate"
and on that topic if a vehicle is checking the runway can AT give a land after clearance? You would have thought so, but you would be wrong.
and back to topic - what service does Leicester offer these days - is it A/g, FICO, or AT?
and Glush did you not want to tell us the type of aircraft you were flying?
glush..........
You have still not told us what type of a/c you and your student were flying. Classfied information?!!!!!!
Planemike
You have still not told us what type of a/c you and your student were flying. Classfied information?!!!!!!
Planemike
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G-INFO says G-LUSH is a PIPER PA-28-151.
I doubt it would outclimb a Pitts, or whether the Pitts caused them any delay.
Its a bit like when someone in a Porsche uses the outside lane at traffic lights to out accelerate to get ahead of a learner driver. Pi$$es you off but....
I think Leicester is just A/G and maybe the Pitts just said "XX departing yy" and you missed it. He probably didn't go through the whole" Leicester this is G-XXXX requesting radio check for a local flight.... etc etc."
I doubt there was any safety issue
I doubt it would outclimb a Pitts, or whether the Pitts caused them any delay.
Its a bit like when someone in a Porsche uses the outside lane at traffic lights to out accelerate to get ahead of a learner driver. Pi$$es you off but....
I think Leicester is just A/G and maybe the Pitts just said "XX departing yy" and you missed it. He probably didn't go through the whole" Leicester this is G-XXXX requesting radio check for a local flight.... etc etc."
I doubt there was any safety issue
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If the PA28 was still back tracking, then maybe, with a radio call stating intentions.
But it doesn't seem that way. In which case, I think it was rank bad airmanship.
Pitts by name and pitts by nature.
But it doesn't seem that way. In which case, I think it was rank bad airmanship.
Pitts by name and pitts by nature.
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We don't know the full facts - and never will. Neither do we have the interpretation of all parties to review. Such a forum post makes one suspicious of long standing simmering resentment between the airfield users.
Any sensible instructor receiving a call from a Pitts to jump ahead at the intersection so allowing the student to back track line up and collect their thoughts for a few minutes, without delaying others, would be delighted to say yes. Why would you want a faster aircraft, with bugger all field of view, coming after you wondering where the hell you are? To respond negatively to such a call or be irritated not to have received one is irrational and peevish.
Students are taught the importance of human factors. Being unable to cope with an immediate, perceived, act of injustice perpetrated against one can lead to aberrant behaviour eg road rage. In this situation should the instructor have taxied back, lodged his complaint with the CFI, calmed down over a cup of tea rather than taking of in a red mist is open for debate.
Training is the lifeblood for many clubs, but this does not give instructors irrational rights of claim to real estate both on the ground and in the circuit - it's always a balance.
Any sensible instructor receiving a call from a Pitts to jump ahead at the intersection so allowing the student to back track line up and collect their thoughts for a few minutes, without delaying others, would be delighted to say yes. Why would you want a faster aircraft, with bugger all field of view, coming after you wondering where the hell you are? To respond negatively to such a call or be irritated not to have received one is irrational and peevish.
Students are taught the importance of human factors. Being unable to cope with an immediate, perceived, act of injustice perpetrated against one can lead to aberrant behaviour eg road rage. In this situation should the instructor have taxied back, lodged his complaint with the CFI, calmed down over a cup of tea rather than taking of in a red mist is open for debate.
Training is the lifeblood for many clubs, but this does not give instructors irrational rights of claim to real estate both on the ground and in the circuit - it's always a balance.
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10 at Leicester is a hard 940m long (licensed) runway. Your description was that the circuit was extremely busy. You were flying an aircraft, which will “out perform a Pitts”. A Typical Pitts would get airborne in less than 200m and has a R of C around 2500fpm. Was blocking the runway to backtrack 20m really in the spirit of things? Had you not backtracked the 20m, the Pits would not have pushed in and the runway usage would still have been optimised.
Rod1
Rod1
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I was at Leicester yesterday and thought it was a bit of a mess! You had a busy airfield and yet people were landing and backtracking runway10! Come on guys and instructors clear the runway at the end rather than making guys go around.
Could have done with a bit more authority from the radio operator! Other than that I thought it was a damn good place to visit with a great cafe!
PB
Could have done with a bit more authority from the radio operator! Other than that I thought it was a damn good place to visit with a great cafe!
PB
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Cluttering up a busy runway
Okay, guys, just for your amusement.
I was flying a single seat glider; from Aston Down on a wonderful day, flew all the way to GREAT YARMOUTH. North Dene airfield down there, according to my map.
Considered completing 300 k by turning an oil rig out to sea, but chickened out from that idea, and after flying up and down the beach a few times, seeing absolutely NO traffic of any sort at North Dene, set up a circuit and came in to land. Without radio, couldn't tell anyone of my intent.
As it had been a long flight, about five hours altogether, it did not occur to me to let the glider roll off the runway. I opened the canopy and heaved a sign of relief at having safely landed, when a red Landrover swung round in front of me, four guys jumped out and without a word shoved me and the glider off the side of the runway. And then they jumped back in the Rover and roared back to the tower.
Seems North Dene was used only by North Sea Helicopters. And coincidental with my arrival, for the very first time in the year, a helicopter was coming in with one engine out, and 14 people on board, thereby unable to hover and in need of the runway in the middle of which was parked me and the glider. When told about the situation I could only apologise abjectly. Ever after I do my best, when landing at an airfield, no matter how little traffic may be in evidence, to roll the glider out of the way before it runs out of energy!
Of course glider pilots landing at gliding fields are quite used to having six or seven gliders coming down at once, especially in competitions; we do have rules, and we do look out carefully, and we do talk to each other on the radio.
I was flying a single seat glider; from Aston Down on a wonderful day, flew all the way to GREAT YARMOUTH. North Dene airfield down there, according to my map.
Considered completing 300 k by turning an oil rig out to sea, but chickened out from that idea, and after flying up and down the beach a few times, seeing absolutely NO traffic of any sort at North Dene, set up a circuit and came in to land. Without radio, couldn't tell anyone of my intent.
As it had been a long flight, about five hours altogether, it did not occur to me to let the glider roll off the runway. I opened the canopy and heaved a sign of relief at having safely landed, when a red Landrover swung round in front of me, four guys jumped out and without a word shoved me and the glider off the side of the runway. And then they jumped back in the Rover and roared back to the tower.
Seems North Dene was used only by North Sea Helicopters. And coincidental with my arrival, for the very first time in the year, a helicopter was coming in with one engine out, and 14 people on board, thereby unable to hover and in need of the runway in the middle of which was parked me and the glider. When told about the situation I could only apologise abjectly. Ever after I do my best, when landing at an airfield, no matter how little traffic may be in evidence, to roll the glider out of the way before it runs out of energy!
Of course glider pilots landing at gliding fields are quite used to having six or seven gliders coming down at once, especially in competitions; we do have rules, and we do look out carefully, and we do talk to each other on the radio.
A little less conversation,
a little more aviation...
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I remember Zulu Alpha giving a gaggle of gliders turning up without warning at the Power Aerobatic Nationals at Conington a very warm welcome....was that really 5 years ago?
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5 yrs ago/
yep Ed - it was. My last domestic comp in the old svelte Ed days!
As a Pitts pilot, I'm horrified by the decription of the incursion by the op.
Makes me feel like a member of a renegade biker gang - poor show
However, if I'd been at the 10 hold in a Pitts that was prone to overheat and the OP backtracked, I would have been tempted and after a radio call would have gone and hauled it into a tight right turn - by the time i regained r/w hdg, I'd be out of the top of the circuit...
wasn't there - dunno but it hardly sounds like a lynch mob is required
Stik
As a Pitts pilot, I'm horrified by the decription of the incursion by the op.
Makes me feel like a member of a renegade biker gang - poor show
However, if I'd been at the 10 hold in a Pitts that was prone to overheat and the OP backtracked, I would have been tempted and after a radio call would have gone and hauled it into a tight right turn - by the time i regained r/w hdg, I'd be out of the top of the circuit...
wasn't there - dunno but it hardly sounds like a lynch mob is required
Stik
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.... of course you do have to remember that all Pitts Pilots are rude boys!!!
I'm surprised the PA28 didn't pull over to one side to let him past!!...maybe that's what the Pitts pilot thought he was doing when he turned the wrong way onto the runway!
I'm surprised the PA28 didn't pull over to one side to let him past!!...maybe that's what the Pitts pilot thought he was doing when he turned the wrong way onto the runway!
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Flybymike, not meaning to insult you; I was not there. Maybe I was generalising.
What about my comments re patience and accommodation? Do you agree with them?
I have seen the problems caused by pilots who demand access to runways or airspace (I am not saying this was the case here) causing student pilots to make errors in their attempts to get out of the way. So long as we don't know the reason for the unusual activity (which could be a variety of reasons from mechanical difficulties, radio problems, unfamiliarity, lack of proper training, etc) we should give the benefit of the doubt and give them room. If we get to fly another 10 minutes, isn't that what we are doing there anyway?
They call it a brotherhood of flight for a reason.
What about my comments re patience and accommodation? Do you agree with them?
I have seen the problems caused by pilots who demand access to runways or airspace (I am not saying this was the case here) causing student pilots to make errors in their attempts to get out of the way. So long as we don't know the reason for the unusual activity (which could be a variety of reasons from mechanical difficulties, radio problems, unfamiliarity, lack of proper training, etc) we should give the benefit of the doubt and give them room. If we get to fly another 10 minutes, isn't that what we are doing there anyway?
They call it a brotherhood of flight for a reason.