Tailwheel Training
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Joined: Aug 2006
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From: North of Watford Gap
Tailwheel Training
Searched high and low but can't find an answer to this one, so hope someone out there has a better understanding than me:
I've recently entered into a group flying a tailwheel aircraft. As part of checking out the aircraft we went for a short flight with one of the group members, qualified to give differences training.
The question is: Am I able to log that time? I suspect not as I was not mentioned on the aircrafts insurance, nor was I then a group member.
On a related note, when I undetake the differences training on the aircraft, in what capacity do I log the hours? I know I can't train on a group-owned permit aircraft for the issue of a licence or rating, but can I use it for differences training? The other owner can sign off tailwheel differences training but is not an FI so can I legally be P u/t?
Very bemused, not an easy issue to find a straight answer to!
I've recently entered into a group flying a tailwheel aircraft. As part of checking out the aircraft we went for a short flight with one of the group members, qualified to give differences training.
The question is: Am I able to log that time? I suspect not as I was not mentioned on the aircrafts insurance, nor was I then a group member.
On a related note, when I undetake the differences training on the aircraft, in what capacity do I log the hours? I know I can't train on a group-owned permit aircraft for the issue of a licence or rating, but can I use it for differences training? The other owner can sign off tailwheel differences training but is not an FI so can I legally be P u/t?
Very bemused, not an easy issue to find a straight answer to!
Joined: Mar 2010
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From: Up North
Try having a look at this thread from a few months ago It may not look too relevant to start with, but thread drift moves it into the right territory after a few posts.
Whether you can log your short check-out flight depends on what capacity you operated the aircraft during that flight, rather than were you a group member or mentioned on the insurance.
I'm a bit confused about the group members/owners who all seem to be able to give/sign-off differences/tailwheel training, but aren't FI's.
Are they CRI's then? If they are, then yes, they can carry out your differences training on your group aircraft and you can log it P.u/t.
Whether you can log your short check-out flight depends on what capacity you operated the aircraft during that flight, rather than were you a group member or mentioned on the insurance.
I'm a bit confused about the group members/owners who all seem to be able to give/sign-off differences/tailwheel training, but aren't FI's.
Are they CRI's then? If they are, then yes, they can carry out your differences training on your group aircraft and you can log it P.u/t.
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: London
Permit Training
Hi John,
As I understand it, until very recently only the sole owner of a permit aircraft could receive instruction on it. This has changed and now syndicate members of a permit aircraft may also receive instruction. There MAY be some rule that the instructor is not allowed to receive payment for this training but don't quote me on that.
A lot of permit aircraft training is done under the LAA coaching scheme but as I understand it any FI or CRI is allowed as long as they are familiar with the type and approved by your insurer. I just did a very similar exercise on my aircraft with a CRI (not FI) approved by my instructor. What aircraft is it?
As I understand it, until very recently only the sole owner of a permit aircraft could receive instruction on it. This has changed and now syndicate members of a permit aircraft may also receive instruction. There MAY be some rule that the instructor is not allowed to receive payment for this training but don't quote me on that.
A lot of permit aircraft training is done under the LAA coaching scheme but as I understand it any FI or CRI is allowed as long as they are familiar with the type and approved by your insurer. I just did a very similar exercise on my aircraft with a CRI (not FI) approved by my instructor. What aircraft is it?
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
John, do you already have a tailwheel endorsement or not?
As far as the law is concerned, this is the only thing that makes a difference. In order to get the initial endorsement you need to undergo formal training from a qualified FI (or CRI I suppose), and that time is logged as P/UT (or "dual"), with the FI/CRI logging PIC.
Once you've got a tailwheel endorsement, regardless of the type (as long as it's withing the SEP class), the law doesn't really care anymore, as long as no more than one person logs PIC.
So if you have a group member who is qualified to give "differences training" but who's not an FI, we're not talking about a legal rating or something, but most likely something that the insurance insisted on. In that case he can only "teach" you the differences from one tailwheel aircraft to another, but not give you the initial tailwheel endorsement. And he's not an instructor so if he logs PIC, you can't log P/UT ("dual").
So whether you can log that short dual flight is up to you and your mate: Either he logs PIC and you log nothing, or you log PIC and he logs nothing. And there may be stipulations in the insurance policy that he is to act as PIC during those differences training flights, so you might not have a choice in the matter. Particularly, of course, if only the persons named in the insurance policy are allowed to act as PIC.
As far as the law is concerned, this is the only thing that makes a difference. In order to get the initial endorsement you need to undergo formal training from a qualified FI (or CRI I suppose), and that time is logged as P/UT (or "dual"), with the FI/CRI logging PIC.
Once you've got a tailwheel endorsement, regardless of the type (as long as it's withing the SEP class), the law doesn't really care anymore, as long as no more than one person logs PIC.
So if you have a group member who is qualified to give "differences training" but who's not an FI, we're not talking about a legal rating or something, but most likely something that the insurance insisted on. In that case he can only "teach" you the differences from one tailwheel aircraft to another, but not give you the initial tailwheel endorsement. And he's not an instructor so if he logs PIC, you can't log P/UT ("dual").
So whether you can log that short dual flight is up to you and your mate: Either he logs PIC and you log nothing, or you log PIC and he logs nothing. And there may be stipulations in the insurance policy that he is to act as PIC during those differences training flights, so you might not have a choice in the matter. Particularly, of course, if only the persons named in the insurance policy are allowed to act as PIC.
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From: UK,Twighlight Zone
Unless you have a tailwheel endorsement in your log book as a result of dual training with an instructor you do not have tailwheel differences. Unless your group member is a CRI ir FI then you have not been trained and can't log the time. Nir can you fly that aircraft solo or as PIC until such time as you have received the appropriate training.
If you had a tailwheel endorsement already in your logbook and were being checked by another group member for insurance then only one of you can log any time.
If you had a tailwheel endorsement already in your logbook and were being checked by another group member for insurance then only one of you can log any time.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: North of Watford Gap
The members who can give differences training are CRIs, and I don't already have a tailwheel "endorsement".
I don't believe that I can record the flight because I wasn't eligible to be P1 (as I'm not TW trained).
I can't log it as P u/t as at the time I was not part of the group and it's not possible to receive training in a permit aircraft that you don't own.
However, I'm happy to be proved wrong!
monacam44: Can you tell me a reference that says group/syndicated aircraft can be used for training. The only bits I've found say the trainee must be the sole owner.
I don't believe that I can record the flight because I wasn't eligible to be P1 (as I'm not TW trained).
I can't log it as P u/t as at the time I was not part of the group and it's not possible to receive training in a permit aircraft that you don't own.
However, I'm happy to be proved wrong!
monacam44: Can you tell me a reference that says group/syndicated aircraft can be used for training. The only bits I've found say the trainee must be the sole owner.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Not a million miles from EGTF
Do you actually need to log the time at all?
Personally, if I wanted it for completeness I'd log it as Pax and not count the time or I wouldn't bother.
You'll be doing the difference training and type conversion anyway.
Personally, if I wanted it for completeness I'd log it as Pax and not count the time or I wouldn't bother.
You'll be doing the difference training and type conversion anyway.
Joined: Jan 2010
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From: London
Look here:
Technical leaflets
Specifically at TL2.09 although this document is now out of date. It states the OLD regulation that sole owners only may receive instruction but current regulation allows that members of a group owned permit aircraft may also receive instruction. The LAA are a little slow in updating their docs.
Quite a lot is changing with permit a/c. Until recently you could not fly a permit a/c over a built up area. Period. But now you can, complying with the same rules as certified a/c. If in doubt about any of these regulations, call them.
Technical leaflets
Specifically at TL2.09 although this document is now out of date. It states the OLD regulation that sole owners only may receive instruction but current regulation allows that members of a group owned permit aircraft may also receive instruction. The LAA are a little slow in updating their docs.
Quite a lot is changing with permit a/c. Until recently you could not fly a permit a/c over a built up area. Period. But now you can, complying with the same rules as certified a/c. If in doubt about any of these regulations, call them.
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From: York
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From: Amsterdam
I can't log it as P u/t as at the time I was not part of the group and it's not possible to receive training in a permit aircraft that you don't own.
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From: Scotland
I'm not sure if I did it legally but I bought my tailwheel a/c (sole owner) then got a friend with a lot of hrs on the same model, to teach me for some 10hrs which I logged as tailwheel experience, then on his recomendation I took 2hrs instruction from a tailwheel qualified FI who signed me off.Edit: The friend was put on the insurance, along with any qualified instructor.
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: North of Watford Gap
BackPacker,
Training is allowed in Permit aircraft, subject to some limits, that's not what I'm discussing.
My point is that at the time of the flight, I was not a group member, and my interpretation of the rules is that I have to be an owner of the aircraft to receive training in it.
Thanks monacam44, I had checked out the LAA website, as it seemed an obvious port of call for this issue. However, that leaflet states that only sole owners of Permit aircraft can receive training in it. Can you point me to any newer documentation that allows group owned permit aircraft to be used. The AIC W071/2009 mirrors the LAA document.
I know it's not instruction for gaining a licence or rating, but if I'm acting as Pu/t then there must be some form of training taking place!
Thank you ak7274. From what I understand of that document, to train legally the most recent maintenance must have been by a licensed engineer, which probably invalidates most permit aircraft!
As it stands I shalln't be logging anything. As I said, I can't have been P1 without a tailwheel differences training, and I can't have been Pu/t as I wasn't even a joint owner of the aircraft.
Thanks all
Training is allowed in Permit aircraft, subject to some limits, that's not what I'm discussing.
My point is that at the time of the flight, I was not a group member, and my interpretation of the rules is that I have to be an owner of the aircraft to receive training in it.
Thanks monacam44, I had checked out the LAA website, as it seemed an obvious port of call for this issue. However, that leaflet states that only sole owners of Permit aircraft can receive training in it. Can you point me to any newer documentation that allows group owned permit aircraft to be used. The AIC W071/2009 mirrors the LAA document.
I know it's not instruction for gaining a licence or rating, but if I'm acting as Pu/t then there must be some form of training taking place!
Thank you ak7274. From what I understand of that document, to train legally the most recent maintenance must have been by a licensed engineer, which probably invalidates most permit aircraft!
As it stands I shalln't be logging anything. As I said, I can't have been P1 without a tailwheel differences training, and I can't have been Pu/t as I wasn't even a joint owner of the aircraft.
Thanks all
Thread Starter
Joined: Aug 2006
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From: North of Watford Gap
Genghis, that documents perfect. Many thanks!
To save others reading it, it states that I can use a joint owned permit aircraft for differences training provided both trainer and trainee are members of the group.
For my particular case it means I can't log the hours flown before entering into the group.
To save others reading it, it states that I can use a joint owned permit aircraft for differences training provided both trainer and trainee are members of the group.
For my particular case it means I can't log the hours flown before entering into the group.
