So what exactly does the JAR-PPL really allow you to do?

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Apologies if this is a dumb question - newbie awaiting the PPL license issue and doing a bit of reading up as to what this sought after paper document that I've paid ££££ for actually entitles me to do. I re-read the Aviation Law PPL textbook, searched PPruNe/google and remain none the wiser.

I think this entitles me to:

1. Fly a UK registered plane (max 4 pax incl pilot, 200 BHP, Single/Simple Engine) anywhere in UK in VFR during daytime outside Class A airspace. (Let's ignore SVFR, danger areas and other special cases).
2. Fly a UK based and registered plane in most other countries. The insurance document for the local club aircraft had a long list from Andorra to Zimbabwe, so I guess you could fly a UK based plane to/through most ICAO countries - I've seen writeups and/or ads for some that claim to have flown to US/Australia or similar - some would give you a friendlier reception than others.
3. Fly a UK registered plane that's based abroad.
4. Fly a foreign registered plane in UK. (e.g. while those US N-reg planes are still allowed to be based on our shores.)
5. Fly a foreign registered plane abroad. For example, the US based touring holidays that we see written up. Could also include hiring in New Zealand or many other countries.

Assuming we're talking about the same type/class of aircraft in all cases, I *think* that 1/2/3/4 don't require any special paperwork/training, but 3 would need to comply with local regulations. Although locals might enjoy some extra privileges, these don't always extend to UK visiting pilots (e.g. flying on-top above the cloud/out of sight of surface in France). At other times, further restrictions may apply (e.g. Many countries don't allow VFR night flights; Israel you must file a flight plan for each and every flight).

5 is well documented for the US, but presumably applies to many other countries and can take months. My textbook states that about half of the 176 ICAO countries have filed differences for their national licensing requirements.

What I'd like to understand is the broad practicalities/real-world privileges conferred by a bog-standard PPL and which parts of the world you might want to use it.

My background includes sailing/yacht charter, where I've been able to charter bareboat in foreign countries as long as I comply with local regulations. It appears that use of a PPL licence abroad is much more restrictive.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

What I'd like to understand is the broad practicalities/real-world privileges conferred by a bog-standard PPL

Bacon sarnie run. On good weather days.

and which parts of the world you might want to use it

Well, if you're on holiday somewhere interesting the simplest thing to do is rent a plane with an instructor. You do the flying and look out the window, the instructor does the boring admin and nav and foreign language RT. Of course you don't need any sort of licence for that.

[BackPacker]

4. Fly a foreign registered plane in UK. (e.g. while those US N-reg planes are still allowed to be based on our shores.)

In principle, no. If you want to fly a foreign registered plane, the principle is that you need a license that's issued by that foreign country. But there are two major exceptions:

• Within the JAA member states (and soon to be EASA) you can essentially fly any plane registration on any licence, subject to type/class rating limitations. (Obviously there's a few exceptions.)
• The US allows flight of someone registered in another country, to fly an N-reg on the license of that country. But this is a US-specific exception. Not all countries do this.

5. Fly a foreign registered plane abroad. For example, the US based touring holidays that we see written up. Could also include hiring in New Zealand or many other countries.

Actually, no. Your PPL does not give you that privilege. What it does give you is a document that the foreign country can look at and (sometimes together with a separate letter from the CAA) "validate" as being acceptable for flight in their aircraft. This validation can be implicit (like the UK validating any ICAO PPL for flight on a G-reg) or explicit (like the US issuing a "piggyback" PPL).

But your PPL *in itself* does not give you those privileges.

[Cessna 172S Skyhawk]

I am trying to get an Irish licence, and I would be interested too to hear from anyone with any advise.

[dublinpilot]

I am trying to get an Irish licence, and I would be interested too to hear from anyone with any advise.

According to your other thread, you're starting your PPL course next February.

What advice do you need in terms of getting the licence, other than start you need to start your PPL course?!

Sorry, but as SoCal says, you need to actually ask a question if you want us to answer it.....well...that's the way it's supposed to work, though sometimes we answer one that isn't asked

[IO540]

The basic point to get across is that first and foremost it is the State of Registry of the aircraft that detemines what papers are required to fly it (and also what regime it is maintained under).

If you have a license issued by the state of aircraft registry then you can fly worldwide (private flights only; commercial ops are a different can of worms).

In some cases, the state of registry permits additional concessions. For example the USA allows its registered aircraft (N-reg) to be flown (outside the USA) on any license issued by the owner of the airspace in question. So e.g. if you have no US licenses, you can fly an N-reg in Mongolia if you have a Mongolian issued PPL. To fly it in Germany you would need a German issued PPL (and a UK issued JAA PPL won't do - I have the references if anybody wants them).

These additional concessions are fairly random; there is no rule to them.

The state of registry of the aircraft basically controls what is needed to fly it legally. That is the ICAO treaty. On top of that, the owner of the airspace can impose additional requirements, or impose limitations.

As to what you can do with a plain PPL... well quite a lot. You are stuck to VFR rules only (clear of cloud, basically, and in most cases clear of controlled airspace) which limits weather flexibility and routings, but the potential is limited only by how much time and money you are willing to throw at your competence and your aircraft's capability. I flew down to Spain and Crete, VFR. Well, usually VFR but let's not go down there

[soaringhigh650]

and in most cases clear of controlled airspace

Err... I often fly inside controlled airspace under positive radar control - VFR. It's the most direct and safest route.

[IO540]

In the USA, sure.

In Europe, you sometimes get a clearance, sometimes not.

So you have to have a Plan B which is OCAS.

The most memorable case of a refusal I recall was one from Zurich, refusing me to enter their Class C over the Alps, base FL130 and obviously totally devoid of traffic below at least FL250. So I flew across the Alps at FL129 You get good photos but it is only about 1000ft above the peaks in places, and if there is any wind it will be awfully rough and possibly dangerous.

If you have an IR, you fly the same route but at FL160. It's all a complete farce...

[tmmorris]

(max 4 pax incl pilot, 200 BHP, Single/Simple Engine)

Surprised no-one's picked up on this one, but those are the limitations of the rating not the the licence. True, most people who do a PPL do it with an Single Engine Piston class rating which has limitations which I can't remember off the top of my head (the ones you quote are for the NPPL SSEA not the JAR-PPL SEP - you can certainly do more pax, for example, because a Cherokee 6 comes under the SEP banner), but you could equally well do a JAR-PPL with a Multi-Engine Piston class rating, or a Malibu type rating, or a Jet Provost type rating, or a seaplane rating...

There are limitations on the PPL in terms of size and seating; off the top of my head (and bearing in mind the 10th anniversary of my taking the PPL exams is next year:-) ) they are 5.7 tons MAUM and 12 seats, but you could no doubt look that up... In the States you can put all sorts of weird type ratings on a PPL.

Tim

[englishal]

A PPL is not limited to 5700Kg AFAIK , it is just that all aircraft over 5700Kg invariably require a type rating. There is no trouble adding a TR to a PPL either.

Certainly from a USA perspective there are a lot of people flying heavy metal on a PPL.

[dublinpilot]

There is no 4pax max either. (I think there might be for a NPPL).

No max 200hp either. There is an additional rating required for this under FAA, but not under JAR.

[Whopity]

I think this entitles me to:

1. Fly a UK or EASA registered plane of a Class or Type entered in the licence anywhere in the World (VFR) during daytime unless night qualified. outside Class A airspace. Airspace rules will vary nationally, you must comply with the rules of the State you are flying in and any limitations in your licence i.e. 3 km vis and in sight of the surface.

4. Fly a foreign registered plane in UK If permitted by the law of the country of registration.
5. Fly a foreign registered plane abroad. If permitted by the law of the country of registration. Usually a Validation is required.

It appears that use of a PPL licence abroad is much more restrictive.

No more so than in the UK unless you want to hire foreign registered aircraft which are subject to the laws of the State of registration.

[SunnyDayInWiltshire]

Thanks for the comprehensive replies

PPruNe is a great resource for questions like this. Thanks to all for the helpful and informative answers, which cleared up a few of my misunderstandings.

@Gertrude: You probably have the most realistic answer . I will need to add a new column to my log to count up the number of bacon butties consumed per trip.

@backpacker/IO540: State of Registry is clearly the key. I hadn't realised the concession specific to N-reg allowing use where you have a local license. So I could fly N-reg here in the UK, but not abroad to France.

@tmmoris/dublinpilot: I'd incorrectly picked this up from the NPPL license restrictions, so no specific pax or power limits apply to the PPL license per se.

@englishall/tmmoris: I found the FAA PPL does specifically limit MTOW to 12,500 lbs. I looked up the LASORS to see if there is a similar weight or pax restriction for JAR PPL but couldn't find any reference.

So I guess in theory, I could do a type rating on the A380, pack it full of non-paying passengers and as long as I keep clear of Class A airspace and obey Rule 5, would be free to overwhelm the bacon butty counter anywhere with a suitable runway.

Anyway, my little brown package with the license arrived today - exactly 2 weeks to the day I sent the paperwork off - so I can now look forward to a wide range of canteen cuisine from airfields around the country.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

@Gertrude: You probably have the most realistic answer

Seriously though, my most recent flying abroad was in a 206 on floats around Mt Doom in New Zealand.

So there was an instructor sitting next to me and it was legally a "flying lesson" and I didn't actually need any licence to do it. So what? I find these tourist flightseeing trips much more fun if I'm actually doing the flying , and even if it was Pu/t it was the first 206 floatplane in my log book.

(Well, apart from when the engine lost most of its power, which upset some of my family in the back, but you can't always have everything.)

[24Carrot]

Gertrude I would agree too. I did the same once in Japan. Great flight!
Afterwards, to my immense surprise, I discovered that all the R/T had been in English.

[Cows getting bigger]

I am trying to get an Irish licence, and I would be interested too to hear from anyone with any advise.

Don't bother. Come the spring the South will be paying off a hideously large loan from the EU and the IAA will probably sting you Euro 500+ for the privilege of obtaining a JAA licence whilst Weston/Cork/Waterford/Trim will be charging Euro 250/hr to train. Alternatively, you will be able to drive to the North train and get a UK issued JAA licence for half the price.

[BackPacker]

So I guess in theory, I could do a type rating on the A380, pack it full of non-paying passengers and as long as I keep clear of Class A airspace and obey Rule 5, would be free to overwhelm the bacon butty counter anywhere with a suitable runway.

Actually that's a whole different discussion. An A380, together with most other products from Mr. Airbus and Mr. Boeing, are multi-crew aircraft. So at the very least you're going to have to find a PPL mate that's willing to invest in the TR, and you'd have to pass a Multi-Crew Coordination course too.

But furthermore, at the TR exam you'll be expected to fly to ATPL standards and that means, amongst other things, that you'll be flying on instruments to a very large extent. To the standards that are applied on your IR as well.

So yes, in theory you can add an A380 TR to your PPL but practically speaking, it's a different matter. Apart from money and opportunity of course.

Having said that, John Travolta has a 707 of his own (in Quantas livrei I think) and he's got a 707 TR on his PPL (limited to Second-In-Command privileges only).

https://amsrvs.registry.faa.gov/airm...7078&certNum=1

(Don't know if the link works straight away. You probably need to go to the main page Search Airmen Certificate Information and put in your own details first before you can search and use the link above.)

[BillieBob]

....and you'd have to pass a Multi-Crew Coordination course too.

To be entirely pedantic, you cannot 'pass' an MCC course, any more than you can 'fail' it. The requirement is merely to 'complete' MCC training, which may, of course, be combined with type rating training.

[IO540]

I don't think anybody will do the training (a Type Rating or whatever) for a turboprop or bigger unless you have an IR.

A few months ago I had a flight in a TBM850 with a Socata factory pilot and in the preflight briefing, when we went through the pilot training etc it was clear there is almost no way to get to fly one PIC without an IR.

On top of that you have insurance requirements.

[MIKECR]

A look at the average(Boeing, Bus, Tprop etc) Type Rating skills test should clarify why one needs a Multi IR Rating