Where to train for a PPL North of London
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Where to train for a PPL North of London
Hi all.
So, a new member to the forum, and just started thinking about learning to fly. Its something I've always had a hankering for, and am finally in a position where I might be able to afford it, and get the time to learn! I have a question that I'd like opinions on.
Where to learn? I have three locations near me. Elstree (about 15 mins away), Denham and Panshanger (both about 30-40 mins). The companies I was looking at are Firecrest @ Elstree, The Pilot Centre @ Denham, and North London Flying School @ Panshanger. Costs are all about the same.
I do like the idea of learning at Elstree because its so close, and I am told the runway has now been resurfaced, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on those schools, and the locations.
I've dismissed the idea of cabair, for no reason other than if I estimate 55 hours flying (who knows if I will do it in less or more) then cabair ends up about £2500 more expensive, and I just can't stretch to that.
All help, ideas and suggestions welcome.
Thanks a lot
Ian
So, a new member to the forum, and just started thinking about learning to fly. Its something I've always had a hankering for, and am finally in a position where I might be able to afford it, and get the time to learn! I have a question that I'd like opinions on.
Where to learn? I have three locations near me. Elstree (about 15 mins away), Denham and Panshanger (both about 30-40 mins). The companies I was looking at are Firecrest @ Elstree, The Pilot Centre @ Denham, and North London Flying School @ Panshanger. Costs are all about the same.
I do like the idea of learning at Elstree because its so close, and I am told the runway has now been resurfaced, but I'd really appreciate any thoughts on those schools, and the locations.
I've dismissed the idea of cabair, for no reason other than if I estimate 55 hours flying (who knows if I will do it in less or more) then cabair ends up about £2500 more expensive, and I just can't stretch to that.
All help, ideas and suggestions welcome.
Thanks a lot
Ian
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stapleford...............good reputation
Denham pilot centre.................. I have had no dealings with but they have not attracted any adverse comment in this forum.
Firecrest......... nice people at an airfield with a circuit that covers most of Herts.
Airways flying club at Booker............... the "all in" pricing structure at first look covers up the very good value for money that they offer.
North London Flying School @ Panshanger.......... the Pprune search engine is your friend !
Denham pilot centre.................. I have had no dealings with but they have not attracted any adverse comment in this forum.
Firecrest......... nice people at an airfield with a circuit that covers most of Herts.
Airways flying club at Booker............... the "all in" pricing structure at first look covers up the very good value for money that they offer.
North London Flying School @ Panshanger.......... the Pprune search engine is your friend !
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Janu, A&C,
Thanks for that. I did look at Stapleford, but its just under an hour away, and that doesn't take fighting the M25 traffic into consideration. My best bet for learning will be end of day during the week (come the summer) and Stapleford would add 2+ hours just to get there and back!
So, not Panshanger then? I read through some of the previous posts, and it seemed like a lot of negative feedback a couple of years ago, then a bunch of people saying they had taught or learnt there in the last year, and it was great. Am I being too naive?
Booker, that's wymcombe air park, right? Is that worth considering over firecrest then? I think that's what you're saying. Its almost as far in the other direction as Stapleford, but I can work out of an office near there if I want, so its a possible. It was just when I added up all the costs, they were a good £1500 more expensive than Denham.
As for the circuit at Elstree. Is that a good thing or bad? Not sure what you mean. I've not started yet, so my total knowledge is all the stuff I have read.
Thanks a lot
IPZ
Thanks for that. I did look at Stapleford, but its just under an hour away, and that doesn't take fighting the M25 traffic into consideration. My best bet for learning will be end of day during the week (come the summer) and Stapleford would add 2+ hours just to get there and back!
So, not Panshanger then? I read through some of the previous posts, and it seemed like a lot of negative feedback a couple of years ago, then a bunch of people saying they had taught or learnt there in the last year, and it was great. Am I being too naive?
Booker, that's wymcombe air park, right? Is that worth considering over firecrest then? I think that's what you're saying. Its almost as far in the other direction as Stapleford, but I can work out of an office near there if I want, so its a possible. It was just when I added up all the costs, they were a good £1500 more expensive than Denham.
As for the circuit at Elstree. Is that a good thing or bad? Not sure what you mean. I've not started yet, so my total knowledge is all the stuff I have read.
Thanks a lot
IPZ
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: UK
Age: 42
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Panshanger
IanPZ. I live in Welwyn Garden City and trained at Panshanger, I still fly there a couple of times a week.
I havn't read many comments about it on here, but have admittedly read bad reviews about it in the past. I've been there since 2008 and honestly couldn't fault it. Since I've been there there have been a lot of changes, and a lot of new faces (instructors).
As far as I know there are currently 7 instructors + 1 part time female instructor at weekends. All are very nice, all are pretty young (20's-30's), and 3 recently out of Oxford Aviation Academy. They're all very helpful, polite and more than willing to help with any issues you have.
The only problem most people have is with the head of the school. He's a very nice guy, but comes across quite blunt, he simply tells it as it is, no BS. Some people don't like his attitude, but in his own words "he's a pussy cat".
I think issues in the past may have been with the instructors and/or the lack of instructors, I know one or more were asked to leave due to bad practices and attitudes, but the new lot are fine.
Come along, say hello, see for yourself.
P.S They're closed on Mondays.
Some of their more famous antics can be seen here: YouTube - Top Gun at Panshanger Airfield
I havn't read many comments about it on here, but have admittedly read bad reviews about it in the past. I've been there since 2008 and honestly couldn't fault it. Since I've been there there have been a lot of changes, and a lot of new faces (instructors).
As far as I know there are currently 7 instructors + 1 part time female instructor at weekends. All are very nice, all are pretty young (20's-30's), and 3 recently out of Oxford Aviation Academy. They're all very helpful, polite and more than willing to help with any issues you have.
The only problem most people have is with the head of the school. He's a very nice guy, but comes across quite blunt, he simply tells it as it is, no BS. Some people don't like his attitude, but in his own words "he's a pussy cat".
I think issues in the past may have been with the instructors and/or the lack of instructors, I know one or more were asked to leave due to bad practices and attitudes, but the new lot are fine.
Come along, say hello, see for yourself.
P.S They're closed on Mondays.
Some of their more famous antics can be seen here: YouTube - Top Gun at Panshanger Airfield
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Where Dolfie wants me!!!
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems to be the night for recommending www.thepilotcentre.co.uk
As I said in the other forum, they have a nice training environment with well trained, experienced instructors. There is a nice fleet of training aeroplanes backed up with some nice touring aeroplanes as well.
The pricing structure is transparent, what you see on the web-site is what you'll pay. No home landing fees, no fuel surcharges.
The circuit at Denham is "normal" sized - the larger the size of the circuit, the larger distance you travel in completing it. The larger size, the fewer you can do in a standard priced 'lesson'.
You know it.
Horst.
(And no, I don't work there!)
As I said in the other forum, they have a nice training environment with well trained, experienced instructors. There is a nice fleet of training aeroplanes backed up with some nice touring aeroplanes as well.
The pricing structure is transparent, what you see on the web-site is what you'll pay. No home landing fees, no fuel surcharges.
The circuit at Denham is "normal" sized - the larger the size of the circuit, the larger distance you travel in completing it. The larger size, the fewer you can do in a standard priced 'lesson'.
You know it.
Horst.
(And no, I don't work there!)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paul, Horst,
Thanks for that. I suppose its going to come down to visiting the places and meeting them. Panshanger seems to have a bit of a marmite reputation (either love it or hate it), but I guess its worth a visit.
I wish people knew more about Elstree. If I chose purely on distance, then that would be an absolute corker for me, but trawling the forums there's almost nothing, either good or bad about firecrest. A few comments about the state of elstree's runway, and a lot of criticism about cabair (but that seems fairly standard wherever they are!).
If anyone out there has more specific experience with either elstree in general, or firecrest in particular, do let me know (perhaps I should have named the post "firecrest!".
Otherwise, it'll be visit them and see what I think.
Thanks a lot
IanPZ
Thanks for that. I suppose its going to come down to visiting the places and meeting them. Panshanger seems to have a bit of a marmite reputation (either love it or hate it), but I guess its worth a visit.
I wish people knew more about Elstree. If I chose purely on distance, then that would be an absolute corker for me, but trawling the forums there's almost nothing, either good or bad about firecrest. A few comments about the state of elstree's runway, and a lot of criticism about cabair (but that seems fairly standard wherever they are!).
If anyone out there has more specific experience with either elstree in general, or firecrest in particular, do let me know (perhaps I should have named the post "firecrest!".
Otherwise, it'll be visit them and see what I think.
Thanks a lot
IanPZ
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Surrey, England
Posts: 731
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Pilot Centre, Denham.
Hi Ian,
I can certainly vouch for The Pilot Centre at Denham: I flew there a couple of years ago. 'Nice people, good aeroplanes, reasonable prices, well run and good quality instruction. Not much 'club atmosphere' however.
Note that they have worthwhile discounts for AOPA members, however I am not sure whether this applies to student pilots. Anyway, you should join AOPA anyway as it is free for student pilots and you can learn a lot from the AOPA magazine.
Good luck!
Broomstick.
I can certainly vouch for The Pilot Centre at Denham: I flew there a couple of years ago. 'Nice people, good aeroplanes, reasonable prices, well run and good quality instruction. Not much 'club atmosphere' however.
Note that they have worthwhile discounts for AOPA members, however I am not sure whether this applies to student pilots. Anyway, you should join AOPA anyway as it is free for student pilots and you can learn a lot from the AOPA magazine.
Good luck!
Broomstick.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As I said, Firecrest are nice people but to expand on that the fleet is quire "well worn" but this is not nesseseraly a problem. The big problem is the Elstree circuit it will take you IRO 10-12 Min to get around this circuit, when you are learning to land that is 9 min of wasted flying time ( I instruct at an airfield that has an 800 ft ovel cicuit and first solo is usualy at about 9-10 hours, this is very low by todays standards however because we can pack in the landings with the circuit taking about 3 min we can save on the flying time).
Airways flying club are not very good at marketing when it comes to prices, you will find that a lot of the "add on" items that some other clubs forget to tell you about (thats what Cabair are so good at!) these are included in the Airways price, I would be very surprized if the difference in price is as high as £1500, at the end of the day I would say it would be more like £500 but then the aircraft are maintaned to a standard that is matched only by one other operator in the UK. The club facilitys are also without doubt well above average.
Denham is at a slight disadvantage as being located so close to the noth of the Heathrow zone a small amount of transit time will creep into most of the leasons, this will in effect add about £ 2-300 to the cost of the course.
Airways flying club are not very good at marketing when it comes to prices, you will find that a lot of the "add on" items that some other clubs forget to tell you about (thats what Cabair are so good at!) these are included in the Airways price, I would be very surprized if the difference in price is as high as £1500, at the end of the day I would say it would be more like £500 but then the aircraft are maintaned to a standard that is matched only by one other operator in the UK. The club facilitys are also without doubt well above average.
Denham is at a slight disadvantage as being located so close to the noth of the Heathrow zone a small amount of transit time will creep into most of the leasons, this will in effect add about £ 2-300 to the cost of the course.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks for all the help.
It sounds like denham is the best option from circuit and distance perspective, and i see quite a lot of good reviews of it. Entree is probably better once i have my ppl and want somewhere close as a base. I'll keep airways in my back pocket as an option, once ive got proper pricing from them, and given the mixed reviews about panshanger....well, I've dropped them a line, and we'll see the response, but I'm not gonna hold my breath!.
Thanks again for the advice.
IPZ
It sounds like denham is the best option from circuit and distance perspective, and i see quite a lot of good reviews of it. Entree is probably better once i have my ppl and want somewhere close as a base. I'll keep airways in my back pocket as an option, once ive got proper pricing from them, and given the mixed reviews about panshanger....well, I've dropped them a line, and we'll see the response, but I'm not gonna hold my breath!.
Thanks again for the advice.
IPZ
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Apologies, A&C. I just checked my spreadsheet (yes, I am that geeky) and I was looking at the wycombe cabair centre (no surprises there re price). Now that I have checked, I realise that I didn't get any prices from Airways, cos there aren't any on the web site, and they didn't respond to my email (doh!).
Certainly is a case of "not doing themselves any favours". I had written them off on the basis that if they can't organise themselves enough to let people know the prices, what would the flying be like. I stand corrected now!
I will try again, and speak to them if I can't get an answer by email. Who knows, they may even be cheaper ;-)
Thanks
IPZ
Certainly is a case of "not doing themselves any favours". I had written them off on the basis that if they can't organise themselves enough to let people know the prices, what would the flying be like. I stand corrected now!
I will try again, and speak to them if I can't get an answer by email. Who knows, they may even be cheaper ;-)
Thanks
IPZ
I did my PPL at Elstree with Firecrest, they're really nice guys, aircraft are pretty well used but as far as I know well maintained. You might want to check what the situation is re circuit training there as it used to be the case that only cabair could do circuits. PM me if you want any info 
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks Trident, PM'd you.
As for airways....ohhh....I just got their prices. They may have the best maintained fleet, but I can see why. Pricelist is very helpful, itemises everything, which matched my spreadsheet, and they came in at.....
£2300 more than the pilot centre (gulp).
And no, i didn't miss anything out. I went through all the things they listed, and I'd captured all of them for the pilot centre as well. Even if I were to learn at the pilot centre and pay as I go (which would then be the same as airways), The difference is still huge. Even if I learnt in a 4 seater, still a huge difference.
So, choice down to 2, Elstree or Denham, and I can't afford the others :-)
Thanks for all the help.
IPZ
As for airways....ohhh....I just got their prices. They may have the best maintained fleet, but I can see why. Pricelist is very helpful, itemises everything, which matched my spreadsheet, and they came in at.....
£2300 more than the pilot centre (gulp).
And no, i didn't miss anything out. I went through all the things they listed, and I'd captured all of them for the pilot centre as well. Even if I were to learn at the pilot centre and pay as I go (which would then be the same as airways), The difference is still huge. Even if I learnt in a 4 seater, still a huge difference.
So, choice down to 2, Elstree or Denham, and I can't afford the others :-)
Thanks for all the help.
IPZ
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airways. Prices
While having no reason to question you calculations I find in the light of thirty years in the business I find it very hard to see how Airways are that far off the mark with the price.
I cant help thinking something is not being taken into account.
I cant help thinking something is not being taken into account.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was surprised it was so far off, since most of the other schools were a much smaller variation.
The additional costs seem to be based mostly around the actual dual instructor hours. They are charging £192 per hour for dual in a piper warrior. If I compare that to firecrest (ranges from £130-£146 for cessna 152/172) and denham (£140-£160 for cessna 152 or piper pa28).
That means that even for the most expensive alternative (pa28 at denham) I would still have about 55 hours at £32 per hour more (£192-£160). That's a whopping £1760.
All the other items (exams, ground school, medicals etc are about the same, and the only other real difference is that the pilot centre seems to chuck in the exam costs and a year's club membership.
I would really like to know I have made some blundering schoolboy error, but can't see it. And I even checked, and both the pilot centre and airways use a pa28 warrior.
But, I am more than happy to be set right ;-)
The additional costs seem to be based mostly around the actual dual instructor hours. They are charging £192 per hour for dual in a piper warrior. If I compare that to firecrest (ranges from £130-£146 for cessna 152/172) and denham (£140-£160 for cessna 152 or piper pa28).
That means that even for the most expensive alternative (pa28 at denham) I would still have about 55 hours at £32 per hour more (£192-£160). That's a whopping £1760.
All the other items (exams, ground school, medicals etc are about the same, and the only other real difference is that the pilot centre seems to chuck in the exam costs and a year's club membership.
I would really like to know I have made some blundering schoolboy error, but can't see it. And I even checked, and both the pilot centre and airways use a pa28 warrior.
But, I am more than happy to be set right ;-)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: london
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without wanting to confuse matters unduly, I reckon that you'll be lucky to get through in minimum hours (45hrs) at your age and also given the realities of the the inconsistent nature of the good old British weather!
I was once told by a venerable instructor that for every year over 21, you could add an hour to the 45hr minimum for the ppl course. So aged 41, you're likely to take 66hrs for the course! If you get a lack of consistency to your instructors, you can find yourself doing the same lessons over and over again - even though the pilot training notes should prevent this.
For what it's worth, I learnt at British Airways Flying club (Airways Flying Club as it is now called) at Booker and was taught by Dick Thurbin, who I really can't recommend highly enough. The fleet was immaculate and I don't think I ever had an aircraft go tech on me, which is worth something in itself. Because there is a full tower at Booker, the radio work load will be greater, but will stand you in good stead for the future.
I have no axe to grind or connection with Booker (i'm now based at White Waltham) but reckon that it was a great training environment.
I've also been based at Denham and really like the guys at The Pilot Centre; however, there is one particular FISO working there in the Tower who delights in making life awkward for people, so couldn't be bothered to tiptoe about someone else's mental disorders, and moved on!
I was once told by a venerable instructor that for every year over 21, you could add an hour to the 45hr minimum for the ppl course. So aged 41, you're likely to take 66hrs for the course! If you get a lack of consistency to your instructors, you can find yourself doing the same lessons over and over again - even though the pilot training notes should prevent this.
For what it's worth, I learnt at British Airways Flying club (Airways Flying Club as it is now called) at Booker and was taught by Dick Thurbin, who I really can't recommend highly enough. The fleet was immaculate and I don't think I ever had an aircraft go tech on me, which is worth something in itself. Because there is a full tower at Booker, the radio work load will be greater, but will stand you in good stead for the future.
I have no axe to grind or connection with Booker (i'm now based at White Waltham) but reckon that it was a great training environment.
I've also been based at Denham and really like the guys at The Pilot Centre; however, there is one particular FISO working there in the Tower who delights in making life awkward for people, so couldn't be bothered to tiptoe about someone else's mental disorders, and moved on!
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
About three years ago I did a trial lesson with Firecrest at Elstree, as I was thinking of changing schools. I was very impressed with them. Unfortunately, the road congestion between them and me made it impractical.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: London
Age: 54
Posts: 232
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks guys. I've been taking 55 hours into consideration for budgets, as I have to start somewhere. The hope is that by the time I reach 55 hours, I've probably earned enough extra cash to pay for more hours.
As for regularity of flying, I so wish I had free time from work for 3-4 times per week :-)
It might be possible in the summer, where both elstree and denham said they are happy to fly up until sunset. But rest of the time, I am hoping for weekly, and that the weather doesn't screw it up too much.
If it takes me a year to learn, so be it. If it takes longer, again, that's life. It's not like I wont be flying when I am learning, and knowing me, I wouldn't be surprised if I carried on wanting an instructor for a while after I pass. It's not like I have a big plan to go somewhere, or become a commercial pilot. I want something that I can enjoy on a nice Sunday, somewhere to meet up with friends, something that's fun during a normal working week, rather than waiting for holidays.
The issue is whether or not I can afford the next year, and whether I'd be able to afford it if I get a PPL. I'd rather budget now, work out where I can learn, and then start, rather than just throwing myself into it, burning many thousands, and then having to give up half way through, which from what I understand, is what about 75% of prospective recreational pilots do. If I really can't afford it, I'll go the 3 axis microlight route, but if I budget and plan for it, there's a greater chance I can do it.
But 66 hours, I hope not :-) I'm a quick study, and nav and radio work are nothing strange to me from other pastimes.
As for regularity of flying, I so wish I had free time from work for 3-4 times per week :-)
It might be possible in the summer, where both elstree and denham said they are happy to fly up until sunset. But rest of the time, I am hoping for weekly, and that the weather doesn't screw it up too much.
If it takes me a year to learn, so be it. If it takes longer, again, that's life. It's not like I wont be flying when I am learning, and knowing me, I wouldn't be surprised if I carried on wanting an instructor for a while after I pass. It's not like I have a big plan to go somewhere, or become a commercial pilot. I want something that I can enjoy on a nice Sunday, somewhere to meet up with friends, something that's fun during a normal working week, rather than waiting for holidays.
The issue is whether or not I can afford the next year, and whether I'd be able to afford it if I get a PPL. I'd rather budget now, work out where I can learn, and then start, rather than just throwing myself into it, burning many thousands, and then having to give up half way through, which from what I understand, is what about 75% of prospective recreational pilots do. If I really can't afford it, I'll go the 3 axis microlight route, but if I budget and plan for it, there's a greater chance I can do it.
But 66 hours, I hope not :-) I'm a quick study, and nav and radio work are nothing strange to me from other pastimes.
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Ruislip
Age: 70
Posts: 59
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ian - Denham Pilot Centre charge £140/hour for Cessna 152 with the discount for joining AOPA which is free for students for 2 years and joining the club which is about £130. I find them friendly and very helpful. I decided to stick with one instructor who is very relaxed and easy to get on with. I have done 7 hours so far. I have not been lucky with the weather and I think out of the last 10 lessons I have booked I have only managed to have 4. I am good at the theory and plane checks but pretty slow at picking up the flying so I have no doubt I am looking at the thick end of 60+ lessons before I am likley to pass.