Where to train for a PPL North of London

[Jev Flyer]

Another vote for the Pilot Centre. I got my PPL there this summer. Very friendly and good quality instruction. You will learn in a 152 unless you have a particular reason to want to use one of the Warriors instead (they are a little more expensive).

However, you may like to try a trial lesson at Denham and the other places you are considering. They all count towards your PPL.

I don't recognise the reference to a awkward FISO mentioned by a previous poster. Never had any problem myself and fly regularly from Denham.

Hope it all goes well.

[AndoniP]

Hi Ian,

Whereabouts are you based exactly? You will need to consider travelling to and from the aerodromes themselves. If you have a full-time job and busy weekends then you won't want to be driving more than 3/4-1 hour each way, especially with London traffic being what it is, it could prolong your travelling time massively, as you may well know.

I fly with Cabair at Elstree and personally I think they are great. I booked a trial lesson at Stapleford firstly, then Elstree. The instructor at Stapleford didn't bother turning up and I was asked to go and find him in the bar, so sod them - Elstree got my vote, and they've been great. Excellent service and instructors. They might be more expensive but a) their location is convenient, b) i've never had an aircraft unavailable, c) the instructors are always ready and willing to help you out with ground school (as long as they're not too busy).

I know Cabair don't get very good PR on the forums, maybe because they are expensive, maybe because they supposedly have a business-like attitude (which i've never seen), personally i've never come across any problems.

There are 4 different circuits, 3 northerly and 1 southerly. This is because of noise abatement, you have to fly round certain towns and villages. It's not really a problem though, the inner circuit is very quick, the outer circuits will take you about 8-10 minutes each. I remember doing 5 in a 1-hour lesson.

Just my 2p

Andoni

[Miroku]

Took 65 hours at age 57, flying once per week when weather, hols etc allowing at Sywell, when it was run by Northampton School of Flying.

Have since visited Panshanger and was very put off by the owner.

Even allowing for air/ground the radio was rarely answered, and when it was it the calls sounded like someone was on a training course and had yet to read CAP 413.

[IanPZ]

Cha, Andoni, Miroko, Jev

Thanks for that. I'm going to do exactly as you mention. I'll do a trial in Denham, and another in Elstree, and see which I like best.

As for location, I live at the bottom of the M1 and drive a motorbike (so traffic tends to be less of an issue!). Elstree is 15 mins away max, Denham 35 mins. However, I did a test run on the way to and from work (assuming I will do my lessons first/last thing and manage to grab an hour off and make up the time) and its exactly the same time from work, to airfield, to home either way.

Panshanger is not on my list right now. I am sure different people have different experiences, but I'm just not interested in handing over a wodge of money to someone and then having to find out whether or not I like them. I expect whoever I learn from to be competent and professional, and it just sounds a bit hit and miss with Panshanger from what I've read (I may be being totally unfair).

As for cabair, its the cost more than anything. I am sure they don't have so many students go through and become commercial pilots by being anything less than capable, but I just don't have the extra money for it (or, not with budgeting for more than 55 hours). Right now, if it was purely about cost, I would go for a 3 axis microlight, but I reckon I can stretch to the PPL with Firecrest or Pilot centre, and that gives me more options later on.

Thanks for all the help so far, and keep the advice coming. Especially anyone who flies at elstree or denham.

IPZ

[smarthawke]

Speaking as 'a tad biased of Booker' (I work for the Airways Flying Club !) just beware the different pricing strategies that are advertised or even sent out. [Incidentally, my colleagues have been trawling through the emails to suss out why you never received a reply to your enquiry.]

One reason AFC don't put their prices on the website is that it can be too easy to look at the rate and not any notes that go with it - which may be good or bad for a potential customer.

The following is not meant as an advertisement, merely to point out possible different charging methods. AFC customers don't pay Hobbs or Tacho but real, actual 'brakes on' to 'brakes off'. This encourages people not to rush their checks and gets rid of any 'but the Hobbs just clicked over as I taxied in' discussions.

Nor do they pay landing fees at home (the parent company operates Wycombe Air Park) or are there any fuel surcharges to be added. Pre flight and post flight briefings are free. Solo flying whilst flying as a student are charged at the solo rate, not dual.

You can probably see where some companies hourly rate may not tell the whole truth...!

Incidentally, I see the Pilot Centre prices on their website are 'valid from 01 September 2008 and are subject to change' - have they really not raised their prices in the last two years...?

PS If you (or anyone) wants a guided tour of the AFC facilities then PM me.

[Duchess_Driver]

Go on then, I'll bite!

The prices for TPC at Denham have not changed since September 2008 - I think it was actually earlier than that but they have remained the same since. They are possibly going to change when the VAT changes.

Circuits at Denham are 5 minutes from start to finish. The runway is smooth, tarmac and long enough to safely undertake a touch and go. You can do the math at how many you can do in one standard 'hour'.

The charging at TPC is airborne time plus 5 minutes either side. There are no fuel surcharges, no home landing fees and no hidden costs. Ground briefing and any groundschool are free of charge and self learning is encouraged. Exams are £25 per attempt - (you should only need one per subject!)

If you have any further questions - phone ops and ask. The Pilot Centre - Denham Aerodrome

HTH
DD

[tow1709]

You might want to check what the situation is re circuit training there as it used to be the case that only cabair could do circuits.

When I spoke to the guys in the Firecrest office a couple of months ago, they told me they did all their circuit training at Panshanger, so you need to allow for a transit to and from there, which could provide good nav and R/T experience and not necessarily money wasted.

When comparing prices, consider also annual membership (if any), fuel surcharge, landing fees and taxi/backtrack times and exam fees.

Bonus at Cranfield charge ~£152 for one hour dual in a PA-38. This includes ~£9.40/hr (+VAT) for fuel surcharge which does not appear on the quoted price on their website, but on the other hand all their landing fees are included, and there is no annual fee. However typically 0.2 hour per lesson is taxi/hold time.

Nevertheless I am continuing with them because I am used to them, and they seem a well run outfit. About 45 min by car from Watford - a lot less on a motor bike!!

Cheers TOW

[IanPZ]

Thanks for all of that. I think the issue for me with airways is the time to get there, and the price. I was quite careful to check with denham, and their prices are still right, and more discounts if i pay up front (yes, I know)
I'm a bit bothered about the circuit question at elstree so i will check. More and more it sounds like denham will be best, but only a trial lesson will tell.

Will sort something out in the next few weeks and report back if you are interested.

Ta
IPZ

[AndoniP]

Ian,

As I have mentioned before, there are 4 different circuits at Elstree, depending on the time of day and wind. This is usually rwy 26. If you are using rwy 08 (less frequent) then this is a downhill takeoff and will build up skills as the approach on finals and landing is slightly more difficult to judge. The trees to the side and on short finals to rwy 26 are good for your skills too.

If you're solo on rwy 08 you have to come to a full stop and taxi round to the beginning of the rwy, you can't do touch and goes. This will decrease the amount of TnGs you can do in an hour to about 4 due to the taxi time. I have no experience of Firecrest so their rules on this may be different.

Finally as you will have seen in your searches of Elstree, Mick in the tower can be slightly grumpy sometimes but in my opinion that only serves to improve your RT skills.

HTH

Andoni

[IanPZ]

Andoni,

My understanding from some messages I've had is that firecrest in elstree use panshanger for circuits, which means a 10 mile run before and after circuits. I guess that will probably use up 10-15 mins of each session just getting there any back. However, I'll let you know when I pop up and speak to them.

Ta

IPZ

[A and C]

I think that your trial lesson idea is a very good one, it will give you a chance to get a good look at the places, more important armed with "the gen" from this forum on the ways that some company's nickel & dime customers out of money with surcharges for this and that you will know what questions to ask.

I await your findings with interest, it will be interesting to see if Airways flying club are as wide of the mark on price as it seems on first inspection or do they just have a far more transparent pricing structure.?

Please report back it will be most helpful to others who are looking to start flying.

[AndoniP]

Ian,

Apologies, I keep forgetting you're thinking about Firecrest. Cabair (who i'm with) do circuits at Elstree, i've no idea why you'd want to fly all that way to Panshanger to do circuits instead. Cabair doesn't own the airfield as far as I am aware so i'd assume that they don't have a monopoly on local traffic...

Panshanger is a grass runway I believe, could be good for your skills, but your time spent getting there and back might be wasted slightly.

Andoni

p.s. i'd be interested to know why firecrest do their circuits up at panshanger, please keep us informed, thanks.

[IanPZ]

All,

I can't thank you all enough for your help, and I definitely will report back and let you know my experiences. I'll try and arrange some trials over the next couple of weeks, though that's a challenge as there is a bike show to go to too!

I've also thrown one more item into the mix, which is a eurostar ev97 microlight. I've discovered that exodus airsports is quite near, and as long as I can lose a couple of kilo, then thats of interest too. Not necassarily an answer, but definitely a way to start flying if the costs become an issue. Whilst I know that flying a microlight doesn't count very much towards a PPL, it does count towards an NPPL (if they still exist in a years time) and may be a cheaper way to get into the sport, even if in the long term its more expensive. I can't count flying hours towards certification, but I can count them towards fun!

I've also had some helpful responses from people who fly at elstree and denham, about what its like there.

I'll keep an eye on the thread, please do still let me know if you have any thoughts, and once I've done the trial sessions, I'll report back.

Thanks a load.....IPZ

[vorloc111]

All,

There seems to be much discussion about prices here. Personally I believe that feeling comfortable and at ease with a flying school is the MOST important factor and that price should be a secondary factor (although it's normal to think about your wallet!).

Some schools that are cheaper may not be as good custodians with your money - so you may end up paying as much or more!
Other schools may have a longer flight time to get to and from the local training area with less restrictive airspace, so you may get less valuable training time.

Hence I suggest to go and visit them ALL, then make up your mind as to which you feel to be right

[IanPZ]

vorloc111,

Thanks for that. As someone who is thinking about learning to fly, there are a whole load of things that influence me. Price, quality of training, general "feel" about instructors, distance from home etc.

The one thing I can categorically say is that I have no idea whatsover about the quality of the school, and whilst all those other things are stuff I can make a value judgement on, the quality of the school is one I can't. I don't know anything about flying, so am reliant on the opinions of others. Where price has influenced me is for things like making choices between two different schools that people tell me are as good as one another. Cos, if I can't afford to finish learning, then that needs to be a factor.

All that said, I totally agree that feel is important, and what this thread has helped me do is narrow down the number of places I will try, to get a feel. I can always add more if none of them feel quite right, but its easier to start with a choice of two or three, than to just visit everywhere and then try and make a decision when overloaded with choice (or at least, it is for me!).

So, to report back, I am arranging my first trial next week, and going to do a couple and then tell everyone how it worked out.

And thanks again for all the help. You have all been extremely informative.

All the best

IPZ

[ChasG]

IPZ - finding an instructor who you like and are comfortable with is in my view top of the list. If you try Denham book with William De Sousa who is very easy to get on with while being really passionate about flying and makes sure that you get the most from each lesson. Chas

[IanPZ]

Thanks Chas.

First trial is hopefully this weekend.....watch this space.

[IanPZ]

Trial 1 - Eurostar Microlight

OK, all. Trial 1 complete. I went to a local microlight club today, to take a trial on a Eurostar. Yes, I know its not an aeroplane, but to my eyes, it sure looked like one. Anyway, I am aware that if I choose the microlight I have a long list of restrictions, but at the same time, I wanted to have a look.

So, first thing I can tell you is that......"I love flying!!!". If this is going to bore you know, please look away, cos I have to rave for a bit....

I was a bit nervous. Not about the flying, but rather about whether I would like it, hate it, or be indifferent. Its been something I've been interested in for so long that I almost didn't want to burst the bubble of "what if". But I did, and I have to admit, I am hooked.

The guy who took me up spent time explaining everything, did checks, started it up (is it really that easy?) and taxied to the end of what to me looked like an incredibly short grass strip.

Throttle in, plane accelerates, and i reckon before we were half way along the strip, we were in the air. And from pretty much that moment, I realised that however I do this, I have to learn to fly.

We had to stay sub 1200ft most of the time (clouds above), but that didn't bother me. Meant I could look at everything. We flew for about 20 mins, with the instructor talking me through what he was doing, and then he said "okay, so I'm getting a bit bored with flying now, perhaps you should have a go". GULP

We'd talked a bit about it before, and he said "lightly". Don't grip, don't move your hand, just let the stick sit in it, and when you feel pressure in one direction, just resist it a bit. Next thing I know, I'm flying! He told me not to worry about instruments for now, he would keep an eye on things. Just to use the horizon and practice looking around without moving my hands (and so turning!).

That went well. it really was easy. I assumed he was still controlling things, but no. His hands were close, but not on the stick. His feet were not on the rudder pedals (neither were mine!) and he'd trimmed it before handing over control.

Then he asked me to do some turns. Just some pressure until the plane banks, then let it centre, and hold it there in the turn. Keep an eye on the horizon, bit of back pressure so we don't lose altitude, and the next thing I know I am pointing the other way. I just absolutely loved it.....LOVED IT!!!!

He took back control, and said we would land at another strip he was permitted to use, then take off, and head back. How can a little thing like that land so lightly. He came down, flared a few inches above the runway, and to be honest I wasn't even sure he touched down until I realised we were going too slow to still be flying. Then turn around, take off again, and climb at something like 1200ft/min. What a rush!

So, I am hooked. I am heading down to Denham some time this week, and possibly Elstree next week. We did overfly Elstree (apparently, we were fine as long as we were between 2300ft and 2500ft). The runway still looked very patchy, which doesn't inspire confidence.

I'm also at the bike show in Birmingham next week, so I'm going to pop in to the flying show to look around.

Whatever way this goes forwards, it goes! If money does become the limiting factor, I know that I can afford microlighting, and the instructor was great - very confidence inspiring. Now just to look at the decision. Pilots license, or microlight.

More to follow soon. Thanks all for the help and encouragement.

IPZ

[ChasG]

Ian glad to see you enjoyed it. Having been in the eurostar I think you will be suprised just how antiquated a Cessna will seem so will be interested to hear how you get on. regards Chas

[24Carrot]

Ian, it sounds like you have got the bug!
Good luck with whatever you choose.