US AOPA - why pilots drop out
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Interesting point by AN2 about prejudice. I also often come up against the "aren't all you pilots rich gits?" thing often from various quarters, friends workmates etc. Often in a jokey way, but in some cases there is a serious assumption that all aviators are loaded folk of an upper class with double-barreled names who like wearing tweeds, driving Bentleys, shooting etc. Fair enough some are but not all of us. The vast majority of pilots are just ordinary folk. After all if I was rich I wouldn't be renting 1980s Pipers and driving a 15 year-old 1400cc Clio, would I. 
The result is that because in Britain any sort of personal progress is frowned upon, because flying is stereotyped as a rich man's plaything it is looked upon with scorn.
This is further stoked by political types - politicians, activists, people with some sort of axe to grind etcetera - who, for the same reason, view aviation in a bad light. "It's too noisy". "It pollutes the environment". "It causes Global Warming". "It uses fossil fuels". Therefore it is given bad publicity to stoke public resentment against it, and various political agendas are crafted against it to help restrict its progress. Global Warming, Tax, EASA etc.
A shame really, if people understood aviation, it would probably be as revered and respected as it is in North America. Instead all we get over here is beaten down by idiot politicians, NIMBYs and Green freaks.
Smithy
The result is that because in Britain any sort of personal progress is frowned upon, because flying is stereotyped as a rich man's plaything it is looked upon with scorn.This is further stoked by political types - politicians, activists, people with some sort of axe to grind etcetera - who, for the same reason, view aviation in a bad light. "It's too noisy". "It pollutes the environment". "It causes Global Warming". "It uses fossil fuels". Therefore it is given bad publicity to stoke public resentment against it, and various political agendas are crafted against it to help restrict its progress. Global Warming, Tax, EASA etc.
A shame really, if people understood aviation, it would probably be as revered and respected as it is in North America. Instead all we get over here is beaten down by idiot politicians, NIMBYs and Green freaks.
Smithy
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LSZH is trying now with rising their landing fees by up to 800% for light planes
Yet, they do actually have a growth in light GA, with quite a few new airports opening, but horrendous problems meeting "requirements".
Croatia remains excellent though - I hope it stays.
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boats (which cost loads of money and have absolutely zero utility value)
Surprise surprise when the day came they looked at the weather and went by train. So about as useful as a non-instrument PPL and spamcan for actually getting places.
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This is further stoked by political types - politicians, activists, people with some sort of axe to grind etcetera - who, for the same reason, view aviation in a bad light. "It's too noisy". "It pollutes the environment". "It causes Global Warming". "It uses fossil fuels". Therefore it is given bad publicity to stoke public resentment against it, and various political agendas are crafted against it to help restrict its progress. Global Warming, Tax, EASA etc.
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I know a couple who planned to travel to the party conference, held in a seaside town, by sailing round the coast.
Surprise surprise when the day came they looked at the weather and went by train. So about as useful as a non-instrument PPL and spamcan for actually getting places.
Surprise surprise when the day came they looked at the weather and went by train. So about as useful as a non-instrument PPL and spamcan for actually getting places.
Sailing is also incredibly slow. Even a £10M boat only does about 15kt in economy cruise, say 300 litres/hr, with ~ 30kt top speed on some 1000-1500 litres/hr. Basically, going anywhere at all is an overnight stay.
Radio Ham? People will sneer mightily, but it's fairly cheap and doesn't really isolate you from the family. You may even learn some useful skills.
Boating. This is almost acceptable. "Floating Gin Palace" is a hint, as is that somehow it has retained a certain cachet; "The Yacht Club" has a ring to it which "The Flying Club" does not.
However I would say a nice new/newish IFR plane is also reasonably attractive in this department
The key is to get flying before looking for the gurl It is the blokes who get the gurl before they get into flying that get the biggest problems.
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Why Pilots drop out ? - simple poor Marketing
As any Economist will tell you Cost is very rarely the reason for any decision to stop buying. It may be given as a post-facto rationalisation - but it is not the reason.
Why do people fly ? A number of reasons - achievement, overcoming fear, new skill, because Golf is not possible (I did my back in which is why I took up Flying) etc. But the main driver is that it brings them some kind of reward and personal satisfaction.
So how does the Industry keep that feeling of Satisfaction and Reward going ? Hmmm. It doesnt ! Flying is not unique, young males take up many interests and pastimes and equally quickly drop them again. Once Romance blooms I agree that will definitely play a part in terms of restricting available time. If you don't do something about it what do you expect ?
My point is that whilst Gyms on both sides of the Atlantic have recognised the fact people can and do drop out and brought some intelligence to their pricing to reduce defections (or at least the loss of revenue) the Flight Training industry has no clue.
If you still do not get my drift think of a Harley Davidson. Expensive, slow, does not go round corners well, crap in the wet, needs loads of love and polishing and in summary not terribly practical.
Do the Marketeers have any problem selling it ?
Why do people fly ? A number of reasons - achievement, overcoming fear, new skill, because Golf is not possible (I did my back in which is why I took up Flying) etc. But the main driver is that it brings them some kind of reward and personal satisfaction.
So how does the Industry keep that feeling of Satisfaction and Reward going ? Hmmm. It doesnt ! Flying is not unique, young males take up many interests and pastimes and equally quickly drop them again. Once Romance blooms I agree that will definitely play a part in terms of restricting available time. If you don't do something about it what do you expect ?
My point is that whilst Gyms on both sides of the Atlantic have recognised the fact people can and do drop out and brought some intelligence to their pricing to reduce defections (or at least the loss of revenue) the Flight Training industry has no clue.
If you still do not get my drift think of a Harley Davidson. Expensive, slow, does not go round corners well, crap in the wet, needs loads of love and polishing and in summary not terribly practical.
Do the Marketeers have any problem selling it ?
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I think the difference between a motorbike (I used to ride them too) and a plane is that a plane involves vastly more hassle (ownership issues, regulatory, airfield politics and related brown-nosing, currency, etc) so one needs to get a proportionally bigger "fun return" from it, and that takes some doing. It's very hard to extract this return from some old wreck, flown on a basic PPL.
If OTOH one had a runway next to one's house, a hangar, then the "hassle landscape" would be almost totally transformed. For most people, this is not achievable, except at a very low end of flying.
If OTOH one had a runway next to one's house, a hangar, then the "hassle landscape" would be almost totally transformed. For most people, this is not achievable, except at a very low end of flying.
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It's not a lost cause, but I don't think marketing is the problem. What's needed is the whole regulatory system to be torn down and replaced with regulations run by people in the know on the basis of common-sense and safety, rather than profit, empire-building, petty rule-making for the sake of rule-making and politics.
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few.
Smithy
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few.
Smithy
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"Perhaps then an annual contract for "tuition"? Say £200 per month for an hour's lesson each month?"
Good suggestion and may apply to many but there is a potential pitfall. If flight schools in Ireland provided this service (particularly during our wonderful
Celtic Tiger years) they would be full to the rafters with bull**it artists that would be there purely to tell their friends in the pub they were pilots.
In fact I personally know one person that had a share in a LA even though he never held a yoke or stick in his life, not even on a SIM. It sounded good on the golf course though. BTW he couldn't play golf either. You may think I'm joking, believe me I'm not.
Good suggestion and may apply to many but there is a potential pitfall. If flight schools in Ireland provided this service (particularly during our wonderful
Celtic Tiger years) they would be full to the rafters with bull**it artists that would be there purely to tell their friends in the pub they were pilots. In fact I personally know one person that had a share in a LA even though he never held a yoke or stick in his life, not even on a SIM. It sounded good on the golf course though. BTW he couldn't play golf either. You may think I'm joking, believe me I'm not.
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"It's not a lost cause, but I don't think marketing is the problem. What's needed is the whole regulatory system to be torn down and replaced with regulations run by people in the know on the basis of common-sense and safety, rather than profit, empire-building, petty rule-making for the sake of rule-making and politics.
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few."
Not a lost cause then!!! Sorry, but short of a major revolutionary uprising, you've got more chance of getting a whale up your @rse than that lot happening.
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few."
Not a lost cause then!!! Sorry, but short of a major revolutionary uprising, you've got more chance of getting a whale up your @rse than that lot happening.
@Captain Smithy
It's exactly that. I did initiate a thread about ownership in a swiss forum a while back and even the PILOTS there were stunned that they would in today's market be able to pick up an acceptable aircraft for leasure flying and actually operate it for less than it costs to rent. I had discussions with people working at this here airport about efficiency of the said rides and even THEY don't have an idea and think us all gits. A few months ago after I received pretty severe hazing in my social environment for being so forward as to actually BUYING a plane, I put up a competition saying the one who could guess the price (like in the BBC "to buy or not to buy" series) would win a flight with me. Hell, the closest guy was 100k over the top!!
These bozos drive £50k cars (owned by the bank in most cases) but they get kittens if someone spends £15k on an aircraft which will get them to the same destination faster AND cheaper. You're right, the thing is, it's just not socially acceptable.
At the same time, the same kind of nerds often believe that ticket prices ala Ryan are a human right now.
Remember the maginficent 7 sins? Envy is top of the list and it's not only Britain, but most of Europe which works on a socialist, that is envy based, political system. It's not just aviation.
Friend of mine told me a nice analogy. He is in the pleasure boating business.
-An American with his 10 year old and a European with his offspring visit a boating show. They wander between the displayed boats of splendour and take in the sights. Sais the American to his son: "Son, if you work hard, if you live the American Dream and never let up, one of these can be yours one day". On the other side, the European takes his son aside. "Of course, my son, you realize that only those who have stolen from the middle classes like we are will ever be able to afford a boat like this." Sais all.
Of course politicians play this game with frevor. Look at the financial crisis rethoric right now. Almost all of them, including conservatives, now blabber about how to best get one over the guys on top, no matter if they did well or not. That, unfortunately, includes the current US administration, so probably political correctness there will also change.
What many don't realize is that Aviation, and GA in particular, is a sitting duck in many regards. No real lobby (at least in Europe), politically regarded as incorrect and playboy gameplay, it is a testing ground for the socialists to see how far they can go in taking away our freedoms one by one. Wanna bet that the day after the last GA plane has been put in the shredder in Europe, the run will intensify on personal vehicles? The race is already on against personal wealth, and I am not talking millionaires but what used to be middle classes. Heavens, we'll have to vote about a "fair taxation" bill in the coming weeks which would drive anyone with an income above worker level out of the country! It's against the evil rich, who, according to the left, own too much but oh, btw and conveniently forgotten, also pay 3/4 of the taxes here. If they leave, and they will leave for cheaper shores, the whole population of this country will face a tax increase of up to 20 % to compensate. I bloody hope they see that, but I wonder if their (envy)green petty feelings might prevail...
full agreement on all points. The last one being the most hard. If that would come across, the rest would fall in place by itself.
There are few and far between encouraging signs. A community in Southern Germany has decided not to sell their airport to a housing development after all after a fly in day produced 2 million visitors. They decided, there must be something in aviation after all which attracts people = voters....
Sorry for the rant, but sometimes it's difficult to resist
AN2
(who hasn't driven one of those thanks to EASA's invasion of that save haven for 3 years now...)
Interesting point by AN2 about prejudice. I also often come up against the "aren't all you pilots rich gits?" thing often from various quarters, friends workmates etc. Often in a jokey way, but in some cases there is a serious assumption that all aviators are loaded folk of an upper class with double-barreled names who like wearing tweeds, driving Bentleys, shooting etc. Fair enough some are but not all of us.
These bozos drive £50k cars (owned by the bank in most cases) but they get kittens if someone spends £15k on an aircraft which will get them to the same destination faster AND cheaper. You're right, the thing is, it's just not socially acceptable.
At the same time, the same kind of nerds often believe that ticket prices ala Ryan are a human right now.
The result is that because in Britain any sort of personal progress is frowned upon, because flying is stereotyped as a rich man's plaything it is looked upon with scorn.
Friend of mine told me a nice analogy. He is in the pleasure boating business.
-An American with his 10 year old and a European with his offspring visit a boating show. They wander between the displayed boats of splendour and take in the sights. Sais the American to his son: "Son, if you work hard, if you live the American Dream and never let up, one of these can be yours one day". On the other side, the European takes his son aside. "Of course, my son, you realize that only those who have stolen from the middle classes like we are will ever be able to afford a boat like this." Sais all.
Of course politicians play this game with frevor. Look at the financial crisis rethoric right now. Almost all of them, including conservatives, now blabber about how to best get one over the guys on top, no matter if they did well or not. That, unfortunately, includes the current US administration, so probably political correctness there will also change.
A shame really, if people understood aviation, it would probably be as revered and respected as it is in North America. Instead all we get over here is beaten down by idiot politicians, NIMBYs and Green freaks.
It's not a lost cause, but I don't think marketing is the problem. What's needed is the whole regulatory system to be torn down and replaced with regulations run by people in the know on the basis of common-sense and safety, rather than profit, empire-building, petty rule-making for the sake of rule-making and politics.
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few.
Then we could do with a much cheaper, widely available alternative to 100LL, which might help some.
Finally, perhaps most difficult of all, is a culture change in how aviation is perceived. How we achieve this I am not sure, but people have to stop looking down (or rather up) on aviation as some guilty Earth-destroying noisy selfish pleasure reserved for the rich mighty few.
There are few and far between encouraging signs. A community in Southern Germany has decided not to sell their airport to a housing development after all after a fly in day produced 2 million visitors. They decided, there must be something in aviation after all which attracts people = voters....
Sorry for the rant, but sometimes it's difficult to resist
AN2
(who hasn't driven one of those thanks to EASA's invasion of that save haven for 3 years now...)
Last edited by AN2 Driver; 14th Nov 2010 at 08:26.
IO540,
it got published in November now and is set to go in force in April. They will basically rise the basic landing fee from about £10-20 to £100 and then pack the rest on top. We hope it will go like the Samedan one, but we don't bet the house on it.
Sofia is like this unfortunately. The "safe" plan in Bulgaria is to land at Plovdiv, but they do not have fuel, and then proceed to a smaller place like Lesnovo or Primorsko for fuel. Still quite expensive (the fuel) but the landing fees and all are very civil at the smaller airports, if they'd get customs there we'd be having ourselfs some nice airports.... but comes time, come wealthy customers and they'll do it.
true. One of the last save havens of GA for now... Even Makedonia and Bosnia have very civil prices I understand.
Best regards
AN2 driver
How recent is this? I went there in 2009 and it wasn't anything horrid - below £100 I think.
Do you mean Serbia and further south towards Greece? I was going to stop in Sofia this year and their charges list was the length of my arm. A total pi**take.
Croatia remains excellent though - I hope it stays.
Best regards
AN2 driver
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-An American with his 10 year old and a European with his offspring visit a boating show. They wander between the displayed boats of splendour and take in the sights. Sais the American to his son: "Son, if you work hard, if you live the American Dream and never let up, one of these can be yours one day". On the other side, the European takes his son aside. "Of course, my son, you realize that only those who have stolen from the middle classes like we are will ever be able to afford a boat like this." Sais all.
This is true in much of "old" Europe though. I know a German man who bought a nearly new IFR tourer, on the N-reg. He could (should) have kept it on the N-reg, but he transferred it to D (at a vast cost). I asked him why he did it; his explanation was that the Germans will assume you are fiddling your taxes if you fly an N-reg.
He then did some avionics work which cost him untold hassle and money, through EASA giving him pointless grief. At one stage he said he is giving up the project; EASA then caved in (because they wanted the fees).
I rarely fly on business on formal customer visits, because in most cases you do not want the customer to know you have a plane. I have one customer in a part of the UK which takes 5-7hrs to drive to (but just 1hr to fly to) and he knows, but I told him the plane is shared among 15 people. So, most "flying on business" in low-capability aircraft (below the level of pressurised de-iced with radar) involves visiting exhibitions, conferences, etc where the sky does not cave in if you don't turn up.
When I got divorced 11 years ago, and a year later started on the PPL, I did not tell the ex (or the boys) that I was flying, for several years, because she would have given me grief over access. A divorced man is supposed to be in the gutter (according to her, and most others
). You drive a beaten up old car, etc...This "envy" stuff is a tricky issue and I don't know how one will deal with it. BUT pilots do have a voice. Watch that EU hearings video - the chairman says his second biggest mailbag (after saving the whales) were angry latters from pilots about to be screwed by EASA. Goudou (the head of EASA) then declares all these pilots are idiots... so if pilots get organised, they do have a voice. Most pilots are very motivated individuals; they would chuck flying in after 5 mins if they weren't
Pity about Zurich. They will go the way Prague went - very little GA traffic. LKPR jacked up its fees about 4x between 2005 and 2010. I was born there and go there occassionally and I will still go but only "when I have to". Actually LKVO is a new cheaper option - PNR Customs though. Airport management in Europe is mostly a bunch of stupid people who got MBAs from the University of the Isle of Wight
pboyall
had the same discussion. In our area, where there is a lot of granite around, flying straight and level may well cut your distance in half. My "racetrack" of going to Austria from Zuerich cuts up to 150 NM from the track I'd have to drive. Doing that at 8gph and 140 knots will make a 9-5 day worthwile going there. Driving? 6 hours one way, a higher burn off and basically no productivity. Won't buy the basket for greens. They'll put you on the train which has used up more real eastate to build than all airports in Europe combined, which makes nuclear power plants for the next generation an absolute necessity and which will take you 7-8 hours one way at a price higher than an economy ticket on a scheduled service. Talking of which, the places I got to usually need a transfer, meaning 4-5 hours travel time which I can do in 1-20 with my 45 year old lycosaur.
what a moron. The kind I have to put up with here would just as well forbid driving as flying. Anything with the infernal combustion engine is an absolute no-no. The same goes for deodorants in most cases....
Since the "carbon footprint" calculations have an ultimate end result of requiring us to live as subsistence farmers never venturing further than our front allotment to gather food, it's probably not going to be practical to present GA as anything other than a planet-destroying selfish pleasure for the few. But then so is yachting (more so really).
Um, well. Subsidence farmers yes, but how many of us? If it were for the ultimate green wet dream, we are talking a future with substantially less mankind than we have now. Close the airlines, close the car industry, close the power plants, close most of the economy and how many people can an economy like that sustain? Maybe ask the Soviets how things like that worked and they only had socialists to fend with. The combination of the two is as deadly as it gets. In the true sense. Even Al Quaeda might rise an eyebrow at the idea of halving or quartering earth's population in order to achieve greener air. The resulting carnage would put just about all massakkers organized by mankind for the greater good to shame by a multiple factor. Let's face it, a green dictatorship is no place for humans. Not even animals (forgotten the problems with the co-2 issued by cows?)
sports car? Any means of self transport or individualism. As for denying of pleasure, they are at least as good as the Taliban or other sunshine folk around, but without even the prospect of a next world
btw, anybody ever wondered why the colour of envy is green
Best regards
AN2 driver
Mmm. Difficult one. The environmental lobby doesn't really respond to reason or logic. I tried pointing out to a colleague that a light VLA type takes off from a grass field, flies to another grass field in a straight line and thus achives the equivalent of anywhere from 40-80 miles per gallon on unleaded fuel [the flight may be 80 miles while the drive could easily be 160 as you can't go "as the crow flies", ahem]
He still wouldn't have it. Even when you add in the amount of CO2 and environmental damage caused by building a road, he still wanted to argue that he was "greener" driving 400 miles than I would be flying 200 to get to the same place.
Since the "carbon footprint" calculations have an ultimate end result of requiring us to live as subsistence farmers never venturing further than our front allotment to gather food, it's probably not going to be practical to present GA as anything other than a planet-destroying selfish pleasure for the few. But then so is yachting (more so really).
In the "Green world" even having a sports car counts as a earth-devouring guily pleasure that we should be denied.
btw, anybody ever wondered why the colour of envy is green
Best regards
AN2 driver
IO540
add to it the semi influential political class who will ask himself "what can I do to bring everyone else BELOW my own level. It's all about power really.
Oh, the Germans will seek out hidden taxes everywhere. They taxed most of their succesful folks out of the country already and then carry on to threaten the countries their own people have fled to. The GDR with their anti fascist protection wall is not an idea they have abandoned yet. At least the GDR's minefields were easy to spot. As for N-Reg in Europe, we've got a whole thread about that. Eliminate "N" and then eliminate EASA light GA, once the save haven "N" is out of the way, that is what this is all about.
Isn't it disgusting you have to justify what you achieved even to your own customers???
Problem is that we might well be betting on the wrong horse if we rely on the European Comission, certainly when it comes to the conflict with the US. Somehow I think that EASA's rampage suits quite a few people in the EU just fine, otherwise they'd have put their collective feet down with a force sufficient to make EASA resurface somewhere in Australia, feet first.
Or worse, the so called elite universities which produce naught but the people responsible for much of the current and most past economic crisises... heck, sometimes I do prefer a MBA with a fake degree but common sense to these indoctrinated elitist ba*"?tards.
Hey, IO540, if you do set foot into ZRH again before the curtain falls (we are still trying to fight that, otherwise that will be april 1, 2011, no joke) I believe we should meet and talk over a few mugs of the yellow foamy stuff I think it might be fun to talk to people who speak your language from a time to time, ah well, that is what we are here for as well....
Another variation of that one is: if a poor American sees a rich American, he asks himself "what can I do to make even more money, whereas if a poor Brit sees a rich Brit he asks himself "what can I do to bring him down to my level".
This is true in much of "old" Europe though. I know a German man who bought a nearly new IFR tourer, on the N-reg. He could (should) have kept it on the N-reg, but he transferred it to D (at a vast cost). I asked him why he did it; his explanation was that the Germans will assume you are fiddling your taxes if you fly an N-reg.
I rarely fly on business on formal customer visits, because in most cases you do not want the customer to know you have a plane. I have one customer in a part of the UK which takes 5-7hrs to drive to (but just 1hr to fly to) and he knows, but I told him the plane is shared among 15 people.
This "envy" stuff is a tricky issue and I don't know how one will deal with it. BUT pilots do have a voice. Watch that EU hearings video - the chairman says his second biggest mailbag (after saving the whales) were angry latters from pilots about to be screwed by EASA. Goudou (the head of EASA) then declares all these pilots are idiots... so if pilots get organised, they do have a voice. Most pilots are very motivated individuals; they would chuck flying in after 5 mins if they weren't
Airport management in Europe is mostly a bunch of stupid people who got MBAs from the University of the Isle of Wight
Hey, IO540, if you do set foot into ZRH again before the curtain falls (we are still trying to fight that, otherwise that will be april 1, 2011, no joke) I believe we should meet and talk over a few mugs of the yellow foamy stuff
I think it might be fun to talk to people who speak your language from a time to time, ah well, that is what we are here for as well....
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Sailing is also incredibly slow. Even a £10M boat only does about 15kt in economy cruise
What it does have (the owner is an engineer geek) is glass screen instrumentation with GPS and autopilot, so driving it can consist of just looking at the screen every few minutes to check that it's sticking to the magenta line and to see where other traffic is (well, that's a bit like flying too, as of course you only see other traffic that has the right GPS and radio fit).
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Complete novice here but I'll ask anyway. A friend of mine recently offloaded a share in a 1970's Piper Cherokee because it was too expensive to fly, fuel consumption being his major gripe. He's not a "Greeny", although he is a responsible individual IMO. Lucky for him he was able to afford a kit plane ( Europa) which is much cheaper to run in many ways.
I know it's not practical/fair to ground older Light Aircraft based on fuel consumption alone but is this something the regulators are going to be looking at?
In Ireland all Cab/Taxi drivers have been forced by regulation to take any car over 9 years off the road. Hardly a direct comparison but not a million miles apart either.
I know it's not practical/fair to ground older Light Aircraft based on fuel consumption alone but is this something the regulators are going to be looking at?
In Ireland all Cab/Taxi drivers have been forced by regulation to take any car over 9 years off the road. Hardly a direct comparison but not a million miles apart either.
AO9,
Depends what Cherokee. A 180 will use around 40 liters, a 140/150 about 28-30 with reasonable power settings. A 140 can be converted to Mogas. 28 lph Mogas and about 90 kt will produce roughly a 500 NM range, 2 folks and ample bags.
I've seen many such calculations recently. Some guy was raving about a VLA he bought, brand new, some £80k or so, which is happy with 18 lph and 120 kts. I put my finger on the problem very fast: with full tanks (allowing some 500 NM range) it's a single seater with about 20 lb left for bags. Him and the missus can do about 40 minutes if she leaves her purse home. Useful?
Old does not mean worse. The main problem is that we use very old engine types, which are basically only facelifted instead of going to nowadays materials and consumptions. Certification cost is the main problem there. I do reckon that this is why the VLA/LSA hype is so much in fashion, as the certification criteria are much less than for a fully certified airplane. If I compare this with cars, we should be able to achieve a 30-40% less thirsty engine these days, which is what the Diesels do. Might well be the way to go for the future.
Yet: A 1960ties construction can still outdoo the new plastic toys, at least in overall cost. If you calculate honestly rather than with pink glasses the manufacturers like to give away for free, a plane which costs you maybe £30k to buy and will keep this value for the forseeable future will cost you less in the end than a brand new restricted airplane, which costs 3-4 times as much but uses a bit less fuel. New airplanes will loose value fast in the first 10 years. That loss of value has to go into the calculation too. Plus, many VLA/LSA types will not do a better gas mileage and over all trip cost than a 45 year old machine, as most of them are fairly slow. If it burns half the gas per hour but it needs twice the time to get there?
Wonderful. No wonder Ireland is in such deep .... if they do such things to their own people. 9 years sais NOTHING about it's ecological impact. It's politicians like that I have a soft spot for..... a swamp.
Best regards
AN2 driver
Complete novice here but I'll ask anyway. A friend of mine recently offloaded a share in a 1970's Piper Cherokee because it was too expensive to fly, fuel consumption being his major gripe. He's not a "Greeny", although he is a responsible individual IMO. Lucky for him he was able to afford a kit plane ( Europa) which is much cheaper to run in many ways.
I've seen many such calculations recently. Some guy was raving about a VLA he bought, brand new, some £80k or so, which is happy with 18 lph and 120 kts. I put my finger on the problem very fast: with full tanks (allowing some 500 NM range) it's a single seater with about 20 lb left for bags. Him and the missus can do about 40 minutes if she leaves her purse home. Useful?
I know it's not practical/fair to ground older Light Aircraft based on fuel consumption alone but is this something the regulators are going to be looking at?
Yet: A 1960ties construction can still outdoo the new plastic toys, at least in overall cost. If you calculate honestly rather than with pink glasses the manufacturers like to give away for free, a plane which costs you maybe £30k to buy and will keep this value for the forseeable future will cost you less in the end than a brand new restricted airplane, which costs 3-4 times as much but uses a bit less fuel. New airplanes will loose value fast in the first 10 years. That loss of value has to go into the calculation too. Plus, many VLA/LSA types will not do a better gas mileage and over all trip cost than a 45 year old machine, as most of them are fairly slow. If it burns half the gas per hour but it needs twice the time to get there?
In Ireland all Cab/Taxi drivers have been forced by regulation to take any car over 9 years off the road. Hardly a direct comparison but not a million miles apart either.
Best regards
AN2 driver
Last edited by AN2 Driver; 14th Nov 2010 at 12:38.
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The reality is that a Lyco engine, operated peak EGT or LOP, is more efficent (fuel flow per HP) than any petrol car engine.
I have this from the chief at GAMI and I have seen some data to support it.
Only diesels deliver a better SFC than the old Lycos.
In the end, power can come only from combustion of the fuel, and if the cumbustion happens at about the right time in the crankshaft position.... physics is physics! The Lycos and Contis do have issues with getting rid of heat, etc, which translates into a requirement for non-dumb engine management procedures, but that is a different question from SFC (and can be addressed with FADEC, which will come...).
The other reality is that, thanks to decades of dumb PPL training, most UK pilots have little idea what the red lever does, and flying with it all the way up uses about 30% more fuel than flying peak/LOP. These people are not well placed to moan about fuel costs
My TB20 does a similar MPG (15-20) at 150kt TAS to a 4x4 going along the motorway at 70mph. That's not bad, considering no car ever made will do even half my MPG at 172mph. The green anti-GA argument just doesn't wash at all.
I have this from the chief at GAMI and I have seen some data to support it.
Only diesels deliver a better SFC than the old Lycos.
In the end, power can come only from combustion of the fuel, and if the cumbustion happens at about the right time in the crankshaft position.... physics is physics! The Lycos and Contis do have issues with getting rid of heat, etc, which translates into a requirement for non-dumb engine management procedures, but that is a different question from SFC (and can be addressed with FADEC, which will come...).
The other reality is that, thanks to decades of dumb PPL training, most UK pilots have little idea what the red lever does, and flying with it all the way up uses about 30% more fuel than flying peak/LOP. These people are not well placed to moan about fuel costs
My TB20 does a similar MPG (15-20) at 150kt TAS to a 4x4 going along the motorway at 70mph. That's not bad, considering no car ever made will do even half my MPG at 172mph. The green anti-GA argument just doesn't wash at all.