Aerobatics - what are the options?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Bournemouth
Age: 39
Posts: 228
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aerobatics - what are the options?
Hi all,
I've recently come back from the States where I treated myself to an aerobatics 'lesson' in a Super Decathlon at Bedford Field near Boston. I can honestly say nothing has ever made me grin from ear-to-ear like pulling up into a loop and watching the horizon rotate around the port wing tip, coupled with the sensations of g-force.
So, eager to get that 'buzz' again - I'm interested to know what the options are for continuing aerobatics training more formally in the UK, after I finish my PPL.
Bournemouth Flying Club offer the Basic, Standard and Intermediate AOPA aerobatics certificates. Are these recognised worldwide? Would these allow me to perform basic aerobatic figures with a passenger (subject to usual PPL & flying club passenger currency rules), such as a loop or roll?
Thanks in advance
Rich
I've recently come back from the States where I treated myself to an aerobatics 'lesson' in a Super Decathlon at Bedford Field near Boston. I can honestly say nothing has ever made me grin from ear-to-ear like pulling up into a loop and watching the horizon rotate around the port wing tip, coupled with the sensations of g-force.
So, eager to get that 'buzz' again - I'm interested to know what the options are for continuing aerobatics training more formally in the UK, after I finish my PPL.
Bournemouth Flying Club offer the Basic, Standard and Intermediate AOPA aerobatics certificates. Are these recognised worldwide? Would these allow me to perform basic aerobatic figures with a passenger (subject to usual PPL & flying club passenger currency rules), such as a loop or roll?
Thanks in advance
Rich
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Somerset, UK
Age: 40
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich,
As far as I understand it (although I will accept corrections from more knowledgeable ppruners), when you get your PPL you can legally strap yourself into an unlimited aerobatics-capable aeroplane and just have a crack at it - with or without passengers.
Obviously, this is incredibly dangerous and you will die trying.
The AOPA syllabus that you allude to has, I think, been designed to bring some sort of structured aerobatics training to the UK. I think that an AOPA certificate is also required if you want to compete / display, although I again await correction on this.
As for learning the aerobatics figures and then taking your mates up for lazy loops and rolls on a Sunday afternoon, this can be discretionary training with an appropriately qualified aerobatics instructor, until you are considered capable enough to do it on your own without ending up as a smoking hole in the ground. The training doesn't have to work towards the AOPA certificate.
That said, the certificate is something I'm looking into myself so I'd also be interested to hear the experiences of the more experienced ppruners around.
Anybody here done it?
As far as I understand it (although I will accept corrections from more knowledgeable ppruners), when you get your PPL you can legally strap yourself into an unlimited aerobatics-capable aeroplane and just have a crack at it - with or without passengers.
Obviously, this is incredibly dangerous and you will die trying.
The AOPA syllabus that you allude to has, I think, been designed to bring some sort of structured aerobatics training to the UK. I think that an AOPA certificate is also required if you want to compete / display, although I again await correction on this.
As for learning the aerobatics figures and then taking your mates up for lazy loops and rolls on a Sunday afternoon, this can be discretionary training with an appropriately qualified aerobatics instructor, until you are considered capable enough to do it on your own without ending up as a smoking hole in the ground. The training doesn't have to work towards the AOPA certificate.
That said, the certificate is something I'm looking into myself so I'd also be interested to hear the experiences of the more experienced ppruners around.
Anybody here done it?
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when you get your PPL you can legally strap yourself into an unlimited aerobatics-capable aeroplane and just have a crack at it
The AOPA program is a good one but not the only one. At my club we're using the Robson book as a rough guide.
If you want to compete then at some stage you've got to become a member of the BAeA and receive a checkout from one of their mentors, who will sign off your proficiency card. Without that card you can't compete in a BAeA event. Not for legal reasons, but mostly insurance and being good guardians of the sport.
an appropriately qualified aerobatics instructor
What I've heard from EASA is that they are actually going to introduce some sort of aerobatics rating, with the associated aerobatics instructor rating. As far as I'm concerned that's a good thing, although I do hope that they're going to set up some sort of grandfathering scheme for current aeros pilots/instructors.
But until then, I'd look for an instructor who has extensive aerobatics experience, either display flying or competitions. LAROSA (loops and rolls on sunday afternoon) aerobatics are easy but even a proper barrel roll is more difficult and more dangerous than it may seem. Let alone things like reverse cubans, stall turns, tail slides, snap rolls and such.
Think of it this way. You're going to explore the edges of the flight envelope. Do you really want to do that with someone who's never been there himself, and beyond?
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you liked the Super Decathlon, Western Air at Thruxton have one (180h.p. + Wobbly Prop...). Give them a call on 01264 773900 or take a look at their website at Learn to fly at Western Air,Thruxton
No, I don't work for them! (But I do rent and enjoy their Super Decathlon).
No, I don't work for them! (But I do rent and enjoy their Super Decathlon).
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Backpacker, If
What is the reason for the "No aerobatics" restriction on a UK JAA Instructors Licence and why is there a five hour course to remove this restriction?
Any ol' FI can legally teach you aerobatics
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good question.
Here in the Netherlands I was taught aerobatics by someone who doesn't even have an FI ticket or similar. (But has loads of competition and display experience.)
After all, if I have my PPL I can legally fly aerobatics as PIC. So the person sitting next to me doesn't have to have any rating at all (not even a vanilla PPL) to give me "good advice".
Actually that's also the reason why that person could be paid for doing what he's doing even though he doesn't hold a CPL. He's legally not part of the flight crew, but a passenger. And I, as PIC, can pay a passenger for flying with me, can't I?
As I said, I don't think it's a bad thing that EASA will introduce some sort of aerobatics rating. It makes sense from a safety perspective, even if it only prevents cocky pilots from trying silly stuff in an 172 (see below). I just hope it's going to be rather sensible, maybe modeled after the AOPA syllabus, instead of the usual gold plating.
YouTube - Cessna 172 Loop, Aerobatic stunt. NOT SIMULATED
YouTube - Back Seat Fun in a Cessna 172
YouTube - Couple of rented Cessna 172's being put through their paces.
Here in the Netherlands I was taught aerobatics by someone who doesn't even have an FI ticket or similar. (But has loads of competition and display experience.)
After all, if I have my PPL I can legally fly aerobatics as PIC. So the person sitting next to me doesn't have to have any rating at all (not even a vanilla PPL) to give me "good advice".
Actually that's also the reason why that person could be paid for doing what he's doing even though he doesn't hold a CPL. He's legally not part of the flight crew, but a passenger. And I, as PIC, can pay a passenger for flying with me, can't I?
As I said, I don't think it's a bad thing that EASA will introduce some sort of aerobatics rating. It makes sense from a safety perspective, even if it only prevents cocky pilots from trying silly stuff in an 172 (see below). I just hope it's going to be rather sensible, maybe modeled after the AOPA syllabus, instead of the usual gold plating.
YouTube - Cessna 172 Loop, Aerobatic stunt. NOT SIMULATED
YouTube - Back Seat Fun in a Cessna 172
YouTube - Couple of rented Cessna 172's being put through their paces.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Loads of useful info here:
Buddies and locations give one of the people on the list a call and they will try and give you as much help as possible.
The AOPA course is a good place to start as it provides some structure, but there is no rating as such (I think EASA are talking about one).
There is nothing to stop you just going up and having a go, but that's not really very sensible a) because its not very safe and b) you will probably waste a lot of time/money making mistakes.
One other thing to think about would be to try one of the Loop beginners days. The 2011 dates are not arranged yet but here is a link to the ones earlier this year
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/sites10...sDay2010v1.pdf
When choosing a school/aircraft bear in mind that some of the more powerful aircraft will seem quite expensive. However the cheaper, lower powered aircraft will mean spending a lot more time climbing for height in between figures and hence more hours to get the same experience. I think the decathalon, CAP10 and Pitts S2A are ideal to start with. Robins and Cessna aerobats are rather underpowered.
Drop me a pm if you need anything else.
Buddies and locations give one of the people on the list a call and they will try and give you as much help as possible.
The AOPA course is a good place to start as it provides some structure, but there is no rating as such (I think EASA are talking about one).
There is nothing to stop you just going up and having a go, but that's not really very sensible a) because its not very safe and b) you will probably waste a lot of time/money making mistakes.
One other thing to think about would be to try one of the Loop beginners days. The 2011 dates are not arranged yet but here is a link to the ones earlier this year
http://www.aerobatics.org.uk/sites10...sDay2010v1.pdf
When choosing a school/aircraft bear in mind that some of the more powerful aircraft will seem quite expensive. However the cheaper, lower powered aircraft will mean spending a lot more time climbing for height in between figures and hence more hours to get the same experience. I think the decathalon, CAP10 and Pitts S2A are ideal to start with. Robins and Cessna aerobats are rather underpowered.
Drop me a pm if you need anything else.
AOPA aerobatics certificates. Are these recognised worldwide?
At my club we're using the Robson book as a rough guide.
Rich, in summary:
HFD
(edited to add a couple of points)
- Currently there is not an aerobatic rating but this may change in 2012. You *can* self-teach, but IMnsHO you would have a fool for a customer and may be regarded as hazarding the aeroplane (which is against the rules)
- The AOPA aerobatic syllabuses provide structured training courses but there is no requirement to complete a course. You could just do sufficient training to meet your needs but it's good to have a goal and passing an assessment at the end of a course always feels good (it might even give you grandfather rights in 2012, but that is TBC). By the end of the basic course you will be competent at the loop, various rolls, stall turn, ROT and simple sequences, but more importantly you will also be competent at recovering from cock-ups.
- The AOPA certificates are not officially recognised - what is recognised is your logbook evidence of training and your practical ability on any checkflight if you're hiring an aircraft.
- The training cost will largely depend on the capability of the aircraft and how easy it is to reach the practice area. A more expensive aircraft with a good climb rate might end-up costing less than a cheaper aircraft which takes forever to gain/regain height; likewise a cheaper aircraft based inside controlled airspace might be more expensive than a more expensive aircraft based elsewhere.
- Bournemouth use an R2160 and a Bulldog; both are easy to fly but the Bulldog is the more pleasant. They offer the Basic and Standard courses.
- Old Sarum use a Cap10c; a delight to fly and has the added entertainment of a wheel at the back and virtually unlimited inverted time. They offer Basic, Standard and Intermediate courses
- A vanilla FI in the UK starts-out with a "no aerobatic" restriction on their instructor rating, after demonstrating ability and passing a 5 hour course this can be removed.
- When deciding where to train: choose an aircraft that's sufficiently capable but easy to fly/land and make sure it can be easily hired afterwards. The usual stuff about instructor experience, paying up-front, etc apply of course, as always
HFD
(edited to add a couple of points)
Last edited by hugh flung_dung; 2nd Nov 2010 at 23:56.
A vanilla FI in the UK starts-out with a "no aerobatic" restriction on their instructor rating, after demonstrating ability and passing a 5 hour course this can be removed.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Norfolk
Posts: 1,966
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rich - it all depends on where you will be based in the UK - there are good instructors with suitable machines from Perth down to the south coast. HFD and ZA speak sense, Back-Packer's Cloggy-centric view of the CAA/BAeA does not always relate 100% accurately to reality.
Stik
Stik
BB: leaving aside the paperwork and harmonisation aspects, where's the stupidity in requiring someone who is going to teach advanced skills having to be taught how to teach them? It seems like a reasonable requirement to me, and one that promotes safety and professionalism, as well as maintaining standards.
HFD
HFD
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Massachusetts Bay Colony
Age: 57
Posts: 476
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Paul Ambrose at Popham
If it's anywhere near you, Popham is home to Paul Ambrose, a very accomplished instructor (learned his teaching stuff as a 747 instructor pilot for BA). Popham is also a great location as the airspace is all immediately available for aerobatics (no transit time wasted getting to a suitable bit of airspace) and the atmosphere at the place is excellent.
I've flown with Paul a few times myself and can attest that he's not only a good pilot but an excellent instructor.
Here's his website: Special Flight - Pitts Special aerobatic display flying and training from Popham airfield Hampshire
I've flown with Paul a few times myself and can attest that he's not only a good pilot but an excellent instructor.
Here's his website: Special Flight - Pitts Special aerobatic display flying and training from Popham airfield Hampshire
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Horsham
Age: 42
Posts: 67
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I can second Phoenix Flying. I went there in March (after a recommendation on PPRUNE) after having my PPL for a few months looking to try some aeros. The Bulldog appealed to me because it doesn't require a tailwheel conversion first, which meant I could get straight on with the aeros Having said that, I have been thinking about doing my tailwheel conversion next Summer!
Rather than teaching the AOPA syllabus, they'll teach you the maneuvers you want to a very high standard, then clear you for those maneuvers and let you practice them solo. I thought a loop and roll was all I wanted to learn, but having flown them for a while, I think I might be ready for some new moves
Joel.
Rather than teaching the AOPA syllabus, they'll teach you the maneuvers you want to a very high standard, then clear you for those maneuvers and let you practice them solo. I thought a loop and roll was all I wanted to learn, but having flown them for a while, I think I might be ready for some new moves
Joel.
where's the stupidity in requiring someone who is going to teach advanced skills having to be taught how to teach them?
If the UK CAA really wanted to promote safety and professionalism, it would have introduced an aerobatic rating years ago - the restriction on the FI rating would then have made sense and safety, professionalism and standardisation would have been promoted. As it is, we shall just have to wait for EASA to do the job for them.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: England
Posts: 1,006
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rather than teaching the AOPA syllabus, they'll teach you the maneuvers you want to a very high standard, then clear you for those maneuvers and let you practice them solo. I thought a loop and roll was all I wanted to learn, but having flown them for a while, I think I might be ready for some new moves
Anyone can belittle the syllabus because it has no perceived teeth (no exam - how can it be any good) but I doubt there is a serious aeros pilot that wasn't happy for the advice covering the basic ballistic UP recovery, spin training and how to pull out from an inverted VNE dive (roll before you pulll...) . Once that is over you can happily spend the rest of your life learning how to scew up (do) loops etc...
Oh and don't think I'm writing this because of the desire to exercise my removed no aeros instructor rating because other peoples aeros are scary...(mine are ace).
18g: just to correct a slight error - the AOPA courses DO have a test at the end if you want to get the certificate ... in fact I'm doing someone's test at the weekend, weather permitting.
Also, it is possible to just learn to fly loops, wingovers and aileron/ballistic rolls - I've had several people do exactly that (but they also need to be able to recover from the inverted, vertical, spin and spiral).
HFD
Also, it is possible to just learn to fly loops, wingovers and aileron/ballistic rolls - I've had several people do exactly that (but they also need to be able to recover from the inverted, vertical, spin and spiral).
HFD