Flying Abroad on a 'Lifetime' UK CAA Licence
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Flying Abroad on a 'Lifetime' UK CAA Licence
I belong to two French and one Italian flying clubs, and I fly with French and Italian co-pilots in their own countries in their own club planes.
If I fly outside of the country of registration of one of their club aircraft (say into Spain), can I be PIC on my 'lifetime' CAA pilot's licence, in a non G-reg aircraft outside of the country of registration of the aircraft?
Some say I can, and some say I can't. Where can I find the 'rules' please?
If I fly outside of the country of registration of one of their club aircraft (say into Spain), can I be PIC on my 'lifetime' CAA pilot's licence, in a non G-reg aircraft outside of the country of registration of the aircraft?
Some say I can, and some say I can't. Where can I find the 'rules' please?
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1. Your companions are not co-pilots within the legal definition unless you are on a flight where multi-crew operation is a legal requirement.
2. If your UK Licence has been rendered valid by the country of registration of the aircraft then you fly it in accordance with the privileges that have been granted by the state of registration.
When you fly in someone's airspace you are subject to their laws. If they are an ICAO contracting state then they will pemit you to fly in their airspace if you are flying an ICAO compliant aircraft on an ICAO compliant license issued or rendered valid by the state of registry of the aircraft.
If you go outside those parameters and are not covered by an exemption (e.g. for an NPPL or a Permit Aircraft in France) then you cannot legally be PIC.
This advice is worth what you paid for it.
2. If your UK Licence has been rendered valid by the country of registration of the aircraft then you fly it in accordance with the privileges that have been granted by the state of registration.
When you fly in someone's airspace you are subject to their laws. If they are an ICAO contracting state then they will pemit you to fly in their airspace if you are flying an ICAO compliant aircraft on an ICAO compliant license issued or rendered valid by the state of registry of the aircraft.
If you go outside those parameters and are not covered by an exemption (e.g. for an NPPL or a Permit Aircraft in France) then you cannot legally be PIC.
This advice is worth what you paid for it.
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Thanks Mike, that's clear and makes sense.
So, I can hire an I-reg plane in Como where I am a club member and I can fly it solo over Europe to land in the UK because the plane, the countries overflown and me are all ICAO compliant.
I recently obtained an Italian floatplane class rating at Lake Como, and I applied to the UK CAA to have the class rating applied to my UK Licence.
The CAA refused my request, saying that all the papers I had sent were in order, except that I had not passed the UK Seamanship Test (which is not available at Como).
If I can already fly an ICAO compliant amphibious floatplane to the UK on my ICAO UK Licence + Italian Class Rating, do I need to add the rating to my licence before going flying in the UK in a floatplane?
(aside - what's a better shorthand term please for 'the pilot sitting next to me in a single crew aeroplane to whom I may pass control from time to time'?)
So, I can hire an I-reg plane in Como where I am a club member and I can fly it solo over Europe to land in the UK because the plane, the countries overflown and me are all ICAO compliant.
I recently obtained an Italian floatplane class rating at Lake Como, and I applied to the UK CAA to have the class rating applied to my UK Licence.
The CAA refused my request, saying that all the papers I had sent were in order, except that I had not passed the UK Seamanship Test (which is not available at Como).
If I can already fly an ICAO compliant amphibious floatplane to the UK on my ICAO UK Licence + Italian Class Rating, do I need to add the rating to my licence before going flying in the UK in a floatplane?
(aside - what's a better shorthand term please for 'the pilot sitting next to me in a single crew aeroplane to whom I may pass control from time to time'?)
So, I can hire an I-reg plane in Como where I am a club member and I can fly it solo over Europe to land in the UK because the plane, the countries overflown and me are all ICAO compliant.
You cannot fly any floatplane on the basis of your UK national licence as it does not include the relevant class rating. A separate rating gained from another Authority is not valid unless and until it is included in a licence.
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Try ONTRACK AVIATION LIMITED it's recommended. I passed this test some years ago and then went on to get my SEP(sea) at Como. Fabulous rating to hold! 
The FAA is ICAO, but you can’t fly an N registration unless you have an FAA certificate.
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(aside - what's a better shorthand term please for 'the pilot sitting next to me in a single crew aeroplane to whom I may pass control from time to time'?)
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Very good - I think I've got it thanks Mike Cross and BillieBob.
I can hire a plane in any ICAO country and fly it in any ICAO country of my choice on my ICAO licence.
I can only fly planes for which I have a valid rating in my licence at the time of hiring.
Simple really.
There are other pilots in the various clubs I'm a member of that are interested in the outcome. What 'chapter and verse' should I quote to them please? (pprune.org carries weight, but not CAA weight).
How can I find out if a given country I intend to visit in my hired plane (e.g. Libya) requires their own validation certificate for my ICAO licence? I think I know the answer to this one - contact each CAA separately....
I can hire a plane in any ICAO country and fly it in any ICAO country of my choice on my ICAO licence.
I can only fly planes for which I have a valid rating in my licence at the time of hiring.
Simple really.
There are other pilots in the various clubs I'm a member of that are interested in the outcome. What 'chapter and verse' should I quote to them please? (pprune.org carries weight, but not CAA weight).
How can I find out if a given country I intend to visit in my hired plane (e.g. Libya) requires their own validation certificate for my ICAO licence? I think I know the answer to this one - contact each CAA separately....
Your statement:
I can hire a plane in any ICAO country and fly it in any ICAO country of my choice on my ICAO licence.
is not correct.
A JAA licence can fly any JAA plane, an FAA licence can fly any FAA plane. Split that (or any of the hundreds of variations ie by CAA), and you will need validation. This will be anything from a paperwork exercise to actually doing exams and having a flight test.
Case in point is if you wanted to fly a South African aircraft - you have to do exams and a flight test...
Safe flights!
Sam.
I can hire a plane in any ICAO country and fly it in any ICAO country of my choice on my ICAO licence.
is not correct.
A JAA licence can fly any JAA plane, an FAA licence can fly any FAA plane. Split that (or any of the hundreds of variations ie by CAA), and you will need validation. This will be anything from a paperwork exercise to actually doing exams and having a flight test.
Case in point is if you wanted to fly a South African aircraft - you have to do exams and a flight test...
Safe flights!
Sam.
Very good - I think I've got it
I can hire a plane in any ICAO country and fly it in any ICAO country of my choice on my ICAO licence provided that the licence has been validated by the licensing authority of the country of registry of the aircraft and subject to any restrictions imposed by that validation.
How can I find out if a given country I intend to visit in my hired plane (e.g. Libya) requires their own validation certificate for my ICAO licence? I think I know the answer to this one - contact each CAA separately....
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I came across this at the ICAO website icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm :
"Validation of a foreign licence"
"When a State validates a foreign licence, it recognizes it as valid for use on aircraft on its own registry. The Convention on International Civil Aviation and its Annex 1 do not contain specific requirements for the validation of licences beyond establishing the principle and the fact that the validity of a validation, cannot be extended beyond the validity of the supporting licence. As a result, conditions under which validation is granted vary from State to State. It depends on the level of privileges required and on the origin of the licence. It is generally easy to obtain a validation for VFR private flights, but more stringent rules may exist for professional licences. The applicant may be required to get additional training and/or to take new exams."
If "conditions....vary from State to State" and JAA Licences are issued by States, it follows that the conditions on the use of JAA licences also vary from State to State.
It seems intuitive that a JAA Licence should be usable on any JAA aircraft, but under this ICAO interpretation it still has to be validated State to State, just like my own CAA 'Lifetime' licence.
Also "It depends on the privileges required and on the origin of the licence".
"Validation of a foreign licence"
"When a State validates a foreign licence, it recognizes it as valid for use on aircraft on its own registry. The Convention on International Civil Aviation and its Annex 1 do not contain specific requirements for the validation of licences beyond establishing the principle and the fact that the validity of a validation, cannot be extended beyond the validity of the supporting licence. As a result, conditions under which validation is granted vary from State to State. It depends on the level of privileges required and on the origin of the licence. It is generally easy to obtain a validation for VFR private flights, but more stringent rules may exist for professional licences. The applicant may be required to get additional training and/or to take new exams."
If "conditions....vary from State to State" and JAA Licences are issued by States, it follows that the conditions on the use of JAA licences also vary from State to State.
It seems intuitive that a JAA Licence should be usable on any JAA aircraft, but under this ICAO interpretation it still has to be validated State to State, just like my own CAA 'Lifetime' licence.
Also "It depends on the privileges required and on the origin of the licence".
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Recommended reading. Arts 61-63 of the ANO which explain how the UK deals with validation of foreign licences.
The UK and USA differ in their approach. The UK grants privileges to foreign licence holders but does not issue a UK licence. The US will issue a FAA licence "based on" a foreign licence. Therefore nothing the CAA does has effect outside the UK.
There are separate articles dealing with what can and cannot be done in a foreign registered aircraft.
Requirement for appropriate licence to act as member of flight crew of aircraft registered elsewhere than in the United Kingdom
61 A person must not act as a member of the flight crew which must by or under this Order be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator; or
(b) in the case of an aircraft on a private flight, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or under this Order, and the CAA does not give a direction to the contrary.
Deeming a non-United Kingdom flight crew licence valid
62 (1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (2) applies to any licence which authorises the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is granted:
(a) under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence; or
(b) under the law of a relevant overseas territory.
(2) Subject to paragraph (4), for the purposes of this Part, such a licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to such a licence if it authorises the holder to act as a student pilot only.
(4) A licence deemed valid under paragraph (2) does not entitle the holder:
(a) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight for which the holder receives remuneration for services as a member of the flight crew; or
(b) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
(5) A JAA licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, a licence rendered valid under this Order.
61 A person must not act as a member of the flight crew which must by or under this Order be carried in an aircraft registered in a country other than the United Kingdom unless:
(a) in the case of an aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or the State of the operator; or
(b) in the case of an aircraft on a private flight, that person is the holder of an appropriate licence granted or rendered valid under the law of the country in which the aircraft is registered or under this Order, and the CAA does not give a direction to the contrary.
Deeming a non-United Kingdom flight crew licence valid
62 (1) Subject to paragraphs (3) and (4), paragraph (2) applies to any licence which authorises the holder to act as a member of the flight crew of an aircraft and is granted:
(a) under the law of a Contracting State other than the United Kingdom but which is not a JAA licence; or
(b) under the law of a relevant overseas territory.
(2) Subject to paragraph (4), for the purposes of this Part, such a licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, deemed to be a licence rendered valid under this Order.
(3) Paragraph (2) does not apply to such a licence if it authorises the holder to act as a student pilot only.
(4) A licence deemed valid under paragraph (2) does not entitle the holder:
(a) to act as a member of the flight crew of any aircraft flying for the purpose of commercial air transport, public transport or aerial work or on any flight for which the holder receives remuneration for services as a member of the flight crew; or
(b) in the case of a pilot's licence, to act as pilot of any aircraft flying in controlled airspace in circumstances requiring compliance with the Instrument Flight Rules or to give any instruction in flying.
(5) A JAA licence is, unless the CAA gives a direction to the contrary, a licence rendered valid under this Order.
There are separate articles dealing with what can and cannot be done in a foreign registered aircraft.
Somebody from the UK will need to confirm my assumption here.
Don't worry - give it a couple of years and EASA will sort out all this sort of stuff...
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So, to sum up:
With a UK JAA Licence I can fly any JAA reg plane in any JAA country. It is a JAA condition that a JAA State incorporates this right into its ANO.
(see JAA | Licensing Overview for the list of countries offering mutual recognition - it includes all european countries for a PPL(A))
Fly over a State outside the JAA area in any plane, and I have to obtain authority from the ICAO authority in that State before entering their airspace.
(see the ICAO website icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm).
I need to have a rating that I obtained in a different JAA country included in my UK licence before I can exercise that rating.
(see UK ANO Schedule 8).
I've booked the Seamanship test for 10th November, and I'll apply for a UK JAA licence once the floatplane rating is on my UK Licence.
That concludes the thread from my point of view. Many thanks to the Prunes who contributed, and so quickly! Isn't pprune.org wonderful!
I'm not sure about passing control to a passenger, but that's a whole different thread....
Safe and legal flying!
With a UK JAA Licence I can fly any JAA reg plane in any JAA country. It is a JAA condition that a JAA State incorporates this right into its ANO.
(see JAA | Licensing Overview for the list of countries offering mutual recognition - it includes all european countries for a PPL(A))
Fly over a State outside the JAA area in any plane, and I have to obtain authority from the ICAO authority in that State before entering their airspace.
(see the ICAO website icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm).
I need to have a rating that I obtained in a different JAA country included in my UK licence before I can exercise that rating.
(see UK ANO Schedule 8).
I've booked the Seamanship test for 10th November, and I'll apply for a UK JAA licence once the floatplane rating is on my UK Licence.
That concludes the thread from my point of view. Many thanks to the Prunes who contributed, and so quickly! Isn't pprune.org wonderful!
I'm not sure about passing control to a passenger, but that's a whole different thread....
Safe and legal flying!
Fly over a State outside the JAA area in any plane, and I have to obtain authority from the ICAO authority in that State before entering their airspace.
(see the ICAO website icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm).
(see the ICAO website icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm).
I'm not sure about passing control to a passenger, but that's a whole different thread....
