Attitudes of schools and instructors
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Attitudes of schools and instructors
I started a thread on this on the Wannabes Forum a few days ago. It occurred to me some of you might be interested in reading it, and I don't know if you all usually read Wannabes. If you do sorry for boring you.
Whirly
Whirly
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I have looked at the thread and it just confirms what I already know.
The majority of so called "instructors" are just in it for themselves... using the poor wannabees as stepping stones and displaying very little professional pride in their (very important) work.
I am in the position of just completing the sale of my business to a larger conglomerate and having a good crop of grey hair and my first reading glasses have considered instruction... BUT JAR has got in my way.
Colleagues consider me as a "people person", I have brought along lots of trainees in my time, most of whom are out there in the business world.
As my way into instruction is blocked for now I am about to go into University Lecturing as a new career.
The initial training is SO important... I was fortunate and maybe JAR might exclude the hour builders but to the detriment of guys like myelf.
The majority of so called "instructors" are just in it for themselves... using the poor wannabees as stepping stones and displaying very little professional pride in their (very important) work.
I am in the position of just completing the sale of my business to a larger conglomerate and having a good crop of grey hair and my first reading glasses have considered instruction... BUT JAR has got in my way.
Colleagues consider me as a "people person", I have brought along lots of trainees in my time, most of whom are out there in the business world.
As my way into instruction is blocked for now I am about to go into University Lecturing as a new career.
The initial training is SO important... I was fortunate and maybe JAR might exclude the hour builders but to the detriment of guys like myelf.
Guest
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Just been to Wannabees to read your post and replys quite a lot of sense comming out of there.Personly I guard my students rather jealously and dont like to see student generaly being passed arround. Continuity is worth a lot even if your instructor is not your favorite person in the world, but you can get on its better than changing every lesson.There will always be the odd clash of personalities and thats mostly a two way thing.Fact is there instructors who should not be instructing and students who should not be students Such is life bye bye
Guest
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Beagler, I don't THINK it's the majority. But a largish minority can do a lot of damage.
Fallen Eagle, such is life - but it shouldn't be. After my experiences I want to change it.
Whirly
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird* (edited 07 October 2000).]
Fallen Eagle, such is life - but it shouldn't be. After my experiences I want to change it.
Whirly
[This message has been edited by Whirlybird* (edited 07 October 2000).]
Guest
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Hi Beagler and Whirly This seems to be getting personal I used to scrounge flying for 10 years before I had enough to do an AFI course.I was on £2.50 an hour airborne only for a long time.Up until recently as a full time QFI CPL(not grandfather rights either) BX examiner etc. I worked for two clubs one of which was still only paying £4.00 hr the other slightly more as I was CFI.I think £8000.00 per annum wes my best score.I think I was dedicated ,but you have to look to the club and school owners who allow hour builders into the system.Those times are nearly over give it a year or two then find an experienced F.I. I bet you will have a job. I cant afford to do it any more so I spray paint for a living and I hate it. bye bye
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Fallen Eagle...If the "self improver" route is now closed perhaps there will be a shortage of instructors and your day will come and the dedication you have shown will be rewarded.
I supervise spraying industrial paint for a living and also hate it!
Unfortunately I haven't already trained as an instructor so I am 100% stuck with my lot.
What do you spray?
I personally think there is a ready market in aircraft refinishing, we have an old stock in this country and the paint shop we took the Pup to had a full order book for the next 12-18 months!
We celebrate if we've got 2-3 months in front of us.
I supervise spraying industrial paint for a living and also hate it!
Unfortunately I haven't already trained as an instructor so I am 100% stuck with my lot.
What do you spray?
I personally think there is a ready market in aircraft refinishing, we have an old stock in this country and the paint shop we took the Pup to had a full order book for the next 12-18 months!
We celebrate if we've got 2-3 months in front of us.
Guest
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Beagler we make orthopeadic beds lots of angles to get round lots of runs too if not careful. Factory burnt down March so all year working in shed with clear plastic roof mostly 110 deg plus. please give me some clean air and clouds to dance in once more. Oh Ihave slipped the surly bonds of earth and danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings.Sunward I've climbed and joined the tumbling mist of sun split clouds, and done a hundred things you have not dreamed of. etc high flght by John McGee 1941 its a poem to make any true aviator weep. bye bye
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Heh F/Eagle. I've just worked out where you work now!!
I gave you the chance to shoot the paint on my biplane but you "don't do 2 pack!!".
Seriously though, I hope that this JAR or NPPL thing changes the instructor regime. I have never had "an hours builder" instructor but have seen 200 hour wunderkind (in uniform) at several airfields. They just don't give exude the quiet confidence that comes with x thousand hours on y hundred different types in all weathers over 7 continents!
I would willingly give up my Sunday mornings to teach basic taildragger handling, but I don't want to work for CPL exams and I don't feel the need to spend £4200 on a FIC course.
sNr
I gave you the chance to shoot the paint on my biplane but you "don't do 2 pack!!".
Seriously though, I hope that this JAR or NPPL thing changes the instructor regime. I have never had "an hours builder" instructor but have seen 200 hour wunderkind (in uniform) at several airfields. They just don't give exude the quiet confidence that comes with x thousand hours on y hundred different types in all weathers over 7 continents!
I would willingly give up my Sunday mornings to teach basic taildragger handling, but I don't want to work for CPL exams and I don't feel the need to spend £4200 on a FIC course.
sNr
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fallen eagle,
We need more instructors like you. I've always thought it was the system that was the problem. Now I'm sure. Well, they're already talking about an instructor shortage since JAR. So they'll have to pay instructors more. If it means they get good one, then it could be the best thing that ever happened.
Whirly
We need more instructors like you. I've always thought it was the system that was the problem. Now I'm sure. Well, they're already talking about an instructor shortage since JAR. So they'll have to pay instructors more. If it means they get good one, then it could be the best thing that ever happened.
Whirly
Joined: Jan 1999
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From: north of barlu
Whirly....i think the instructor shortage is just another part of the JAA action to kill off private aviation.
I fly jets for an airline and instruct because i enjoy it but the cost of renewing the ratings has increased to the stage that i can no longer cover the cost out of the instructing income....now you try to explain that to the wife !.
I fly jets for an airline and instruct because i enjoy it but the cost of renewing the ratings has increased to the stage that i can no longer cover the cost out of the instructing income....now you try to explain that to the wife !.
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I was very lucky when I learned at Southend in the early 90s.
My instructor was a hours building wannabee, but his day job was in sales training in the pahrmaceutical industry and this professional background shone through very strongly, with proper pre and post flight briefing/review of the learning experience.
All in all, I was very pleased with the training and it just goes to show that a professional approach can result in a win-win outcome - hour building for him and skills transfer for me.
My instructor was a hours building wannabee, but his day job was in sales training in the pahrmaceutical industry and this professional background shone through very strongly, with proper pre and post flight briefing/review of the learning experience.
All in all, I was very pleased with the training and it just goes to show that a professional approach can result in a win-win outcome - hour building for him and skills transfer for me.
Guest
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Thanks Whirly&Stiknruda I have just taken a real bashing on the instructor forum about ground loops and how its caused.Dont think anyone loves me there now so I think I will stay here for a while where there is a bit more warmth. bye for now.
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Lets get this straight - you want to complain that someone paid 6 quid an hour for maybee 4 hours a day IF the weathers OK is not giving you very good service??? Well I wonder why? Would you expect much from a plumber paid the same amount of money? If you want caring sharing tip top instruction from someone with experience and the time and the enthusiasm to do the verybest job for you then try PAYING for him/her.
Dividing my salary by projected annual hours works out at about 60 quid per airborne hour...
WWW
Dividing my salary by projected annual hours works out at about 60 quid per airborne hour...
WWW
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I think the whole system is backwards!
Flight instructing has to be one of the most important, if not THE most important , job in aviation. In any other industry, the guys who reach the top in terms of skills, expertise, etc. are the ones who teach, yet we do it the other way around! Retired airline types should go on to instruct!
Also, friend of mine, (instructor, teaching people to take 3,000lb metal and plastic machines up over congested areas with potential death and destruction if mistakes are made!) gets $12/hour. She is also taking ballroom dancing lessons. The Dance instructor charges $120/hour!
Time for a revolution...?
Flight instructing has to be one of the most important, if not THE most important , job in aviation. In any other industry, the guys who reach the top in terms of skills, expertise, etc. are the ones who teach, yet we do it the other way around! Retired airline types should go on to instruct!
Also, friend of mine, (instructor, teaching people to take 3,000lb metal and plastic machines up over congested areas with potential death and destruction if mistakes are made!) gets $12/hour. She is also taking ballroom dancing lessons. The Dance instructor charges $120/hour!
Time for a revolution...?
Guest
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WWW,
I entirely agree with you that flying instructors should be paid more. But that is not the point. Students, who are paying a considerable amount to learn to fly, have a right to expect good service. Had I known when I was learning, and had I been given the choice, I would have been prepared to pay more IF it meant I got a good instructor. I didn't know how the system worked, and I didn't have that choice.
But I'm a more than a little worried by someone - especially someone who teaches flying - who decides how much to put into the job, by how much they get paid. From what I've heard of you outside PPRuNe I don't actually think this is true of you, so don't take it personally, but this is not an attitude that will get anyone anywhere, in flying or in life. The best instructor I had, f/w or rotary, believed that everything you did you should do to the best of your ability. He put a lot into his work, and demanded the same from his students. He got an airline job quicker than a lot of the instructors who didn't bother. I wonder why...
Nimbus,
I entirely agree. This is probably the crux of the matter. It should change soon though. While personally I'm complaining about the fact that I now have to get a CPL(H) and do 300 hours before I can instruct on helicopters, objectively I think it's a good idea. I think I'm right in saying that with JAR there won't be any more low hours f/w hour-building instructors, aren't I? This means eventually they'll have to pay the better qualified instructors - the only ones they'll have - a decent wage.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
I entirely agree with you that flying instructors should be paid more. But that is not the point. Students, who are paying a considerable amount to learn to fly, have a right to expect good service. Had I known when I was learning, and had I been given the choice, I would have been prepared to pay more IF it meant I got a good instructor. I didn't know how the system worked, and I didn't have that choice.
But I'm a more than a little worried by someone - especially someone who teaches flying - who decides how much to put into the job, by how much they get paid. From what I've heard of you outside PPRuNe I don't actually think this is true of you, so don't take it personally, but this is not an attitude that will get anyone anywhere, in flying or in life. The best instructor I had, f/w or rotary, believed that everything you did you should do to the best of your ability. He put a lot into his work, and demanded the same from his students. He got an airline job quicker than a lot of the instructors who didn't bother. I wonder why...
Nimbus,
I entirely agree. This is probably the crux of the matter. It should change soon though. While personally I'm complaining about the fact that I now have to get a CPL(H) and do 300 hours before I can instruct on helicopters, objectively I think it's a good idea. I think I'm right in saying that with JAR there won't be any more low hours f/w hour-building instructors, aren't I? This means eventually they'll have to pay the better qualified instructors - the only ones they'll have - a decent wage.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Guest
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Whirly you said:
Had I known when I was learning, and had I been given the choice, I would have been prepared to pay more IF it meant I got a good instructor.
Caveat Emptor my friend. You did have a choice, you could have chosen a school that charged more and had more experienced, full time, salaried instructors. If I buy the cheapest TV set in the shop I don't get all humpty when I find it doesn't have NICAM Dolby and the best picture quality.
You guys in Private flying are indulging in a hobby, a pastime, a recreational pursuit and you enjoy it immensley. The guy in the right hand seat however is at work. It take very few months for the novelty of flying for a living to wear off. Its the office for us, nothing more and nothing less. A suspect a large part of anyones job motivation is the pay packet at the end of the month and it is no different for a flying instructor.
ALL flying instructors were students once and in the main it was not very long ago. They have also generally forked out a damn sight more money than a PPL person. I know what its like to write the cheques at the end of the lesson - I was a PPL once - but remember the club/owner is taking 90 percent of it. And then he make maybee 20 percent after maintainence and fuel. Everything in GA is a low marhin business. I actually think this is why so many people get annoyed by flying training. They pay for a service that costs them an incredible amount of momey in their perception. Yet they get better customer service when buying a hamburger. What people fail to consider is that the instructor and the school owner are making about as much selling you a flying lesson as McDonalds is selling you a Big Mac Meal.
Who gets what you pays for in this industry generally.
Good luck with your training and happy flying,
WWW
Had I known when I was learning, and had I been given the choice, I would have been prepared to pay more IF it meant I got a good instructor.
Caveat Emptor my friend. You did have a choice, you could have chosen a school that charged more and had more experienced, full time, salaried instructors. If I buy the cheapest TV set in the shop I don't get all humpty when I find it doesn't have NICAM Dolby and the best picture quality.
You guys in Private flying are indulging in a hobby, a pastime, a recreational pursuit and you enjoy it immensley. The guy in the right hand seat however is at work. It take very few months for the novelty of flying for a living to wear off. Its the office for us, nothing more and nothing less. A suspect a large part of anyones job motivation is the pay packet at the end of the month and it is no different for a flying instructor.
ALL flying instructors were students once and in the main it was not very long ago. They have also generally forked out a damn sight more money than a PPL person. I know what its like to write the cheques at the end of the lesson - I was a PPL once - but remember the club/owner is taking 90 percent of it. And then he make maybee 20 percent after maintainence and fuel. Everything in GA is a low marhin business. I actually think this is why so many people get annoyed by flying training. They pay for a service that costs them an incredible amount of momey in their perception. Yet they get better customer service when buying a hamburger. What people fail to consider is that the instructor and the school owner are making about as much selling you a flying lesson as McDonalds is selling you a Big Mac Meal.
Who gets what you pays for in this industry generally.
Good luck with your training and happy flying,
WWW
Guest
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I agree with Nimbus at least in part.The people who are teaching should be those with experience and I reckon its the way it will go.Those leaving full time flying jobs with a wealth of experience.I am not suggesting every 747 driver would make an ideal light a/c instr.I know one or two of them that will agree with that,but there is so much wasted talent in this game.Problem is how does one start on the bottom rung cos the old system has all but gone.Only time will tell, But I am saddened that the old British way of flying club teaching has gone in favour of the very clinical flying SCHOOL.We will see if the pilots produced are in fact any better or worse. bye bye
Guest
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WWW,
Yes, I learned the hard way that you get what you pay for in this industry. But people learning to fly don't know that. I didn't, and neither do all the wannabes asking on that forum for the cheapest place to learn to fly, and perhaps you haven't noticed that several times I've told them not to look for the cheapest, but for one with good instructors.
Your TV example is not a good one. If I go to a doctor I don't ask how much he's paid; if I send my child to a school I may know it isn't the best, but I still expect the teachers to do their best they can. Nurses are badly paid; so are lots of people. If you don't like a job you can always leave it; better that than doing it halfheartedly, for you and everyone else.
Yes I work for the pay packet. I also do my best, no matter how much or little I'm being paid, and no matter how much or little I like the job. If you do that, take it from me that you will find something positive in the worst of jobs; if you don't you'll never get anywhere. If you're a flying instructor who's only doing it for the hours then you shouldn't be doing it. It's also fairly obvious who does their best, and who just gets by, resenting the fact that they're badly paid, and wishing they were elsewhere. Two non-flying friends told me early on they didn't like the instructor I was having problems with; they didn't know why, but picked up on something in his attitude. I didn't because I was so excited about learning to fly that all common sense vanished for a while. But I learned.
I repeat what I said earlier - it's interesting that the good instructors are the ones who get the jobs they want easily. If my non-flying friends can pick up on personality traits, so can those recruiting for the airlines; they aren't stupid.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.
Yes, I learned the hard way that you get what you pay for in this industry. But people learning to fly don't know that. I didn't, and neither do all the wannabes asking on that forum for the cheapest place to learn to fly, and perhaps you haven't noticed that several times I've told them not to look for the cheapest, but for one with good instructors.
Your TV example is not a good one. If I go to a doctor I don't ask how much he's paid; if I send my child to a school I may know it isn't the best, but I still expect the teachers to do their best they can. Nurses are badly paid; so are lots of people. If you don't like a job you can always leave it; better that than doing it halfheartedly, for you and everyone else.
Yes I work for the pay packet. I also do my best, no matter how much or little I'm being paid, and no matter how much or little I like the job. If you do that, take it from me that you will find something positive in the worst of jobs; if you don't you'll never get anywhere. If you're a flying instructor who's only doing it for the hours then you shouldn't be doing it. It's also fairly obvious who does their best, and who just gets by, resenting the fact that they're badly paid, and wishing they were elsewhere. Two non-flying friends told me early on they didn't like the instructor I was having problems with; they didn't know why, but picked up on something in his attitude. I didn't because I was so excited about learning to fly that all common sense vanished for a while. But I learned.
I repeat what I said earlier - it's interesting that the good instructors are the ones who get the jobs they want easily. If my non-flying friends can pick up on personality traits, so can those recruiting for the airlines; they aren't stupid.
Whirly
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To fly is human, to hover, divine.