Centre Line
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Go with the flow:
You are at the most exciting point of your career, the early days of flying are something you will forever treasure.
You are also correct as to not slipping to correct for x/wind after take off, you will also find your landing approaches will be easier to manage if you crab to maintain the centre line until just prior to wheel contact, then just boot the thing straight with rudder and lower the wing with ailoren at the same time.
Remember it is your money you are spending so if you have a good instructor don't change. Unfortunately for aviation flight instructing has always been the vehicle for new pilots to build time and thus by default there are a lot of poor ones.
The answer on how to solve this situation lies in Instructor pay, if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys,,,sometimes,,,
I am not denegrating all instructors it is the system that needs fine tuning and the only sure way is to pay for truly qualified high time instructors, this will allow the schools to cull out the ones that do not meet a high standard.
Look at it from the students side. Wouldn't you rather pay twice as much per hour for a top notch instructor and learn it right in half the time?
As to the 10 foot down the runway with a 45 degree pitch out and a 315 Degree turn to reverse heading it is far from radical. Ask any crop duster they do it all day long, it is easier than flying a big circuit any day.
I must admit though that at your local airport it would create pure chaos if everyone in the circuit landed that way.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
You are at the most exciting point of your career, the early days of flying are something you will forever treasure.
You are also correct as to not slipping to correct for x/wind after take off, you will also find your landing approaches will be easier to manage if you crab to maintain the centre line until just prior to wheel contact, then just boot the thing straight with rudder and lower the wing with ailoren at the same time.
Remember it is your money you are spending so if you have a good instructor don't change. Unfortunately for aviation flight instructing has always been the vehicle for new pilots to build time and thus by default there are a lot of poor ones.
The answer on how to solve this situation lies in Instructor pay, if you pay peanuts you will get monkeys,,,sometimes,,,
I am not denegrating all instructors it is the system that needs fine tuning and the only sure way is to pay for truly qualified high time instructors, this will allow the schools to cull out the ones that do not meet a high standard.
Look at it from the students side. Wouldn't you rather pay twice as much per hour for a top notch instructor and learn it right in half the time?
As to the 10 foot down the runway with a 45 degree pitch out and a 315 Degree turn to reverse heading it is far from radical. Ask any crop duster they do it all day long, it is easier than flying a big circuit any day.
I must admit though that at your local airport it would create pure chaos if everyone in the circuit landed that way.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Join Date: Aug 2001
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Go with the flow:
You are quite correct. I was talking about the takeoff roll. As the a/c begins to tranisition to a flying state, i.e rotate, you do indeed take up the crab technique to maintain the centreline.
Cat Driver:
Thanks for the reply. I am now at a loss as to where you are looking in this flare from the profile you have used. I have assumed from the intro that this was to prove a point to me? I cannot find having re-read the profile, where that info is......Can you further inlighten me? Maybe I am thick but please be patient with me! I can't for one minute believe you flare whilst looking right/left at the appropriate wing tip throughout the manueuvre. I have practised many a landing like the one you describe, normally in a Citabria or similar, but not beginning from the original profile you suggest. Even when flying the aircraft in my "day job" at night onto a max-crosswind landing, I am using the cockpit windows and or head/body position relative to the horizon ahead to get the roll cue, whilst still looking ahead for pitch attitude cues for the holdoff.
And yes, I indeed, depending on the type, always "boot" of the drift and apply wing down during the flare to touch down. Although I tend not to boot the rudder as granny in row 13 would be rather alarmed! More a case of "aligning the nose with the centreline by use of rudder" Same thing I know! I always get my roll cue from looking ahead. Whats your secret?
As to the camcorder, well yes I suppose I can't afford one really, not for the amount of use it would get. I only instruct/examine one day a week now. Its a hobby for me, so could think of other ways of spending that pocket money from instructing!
Anyway, sorry to drag guys, but please Cat, can you give me some more info. Cheers.
You are quite correct. I was talking about the takeoff roll. As the a/c begins to tranisition to a flying state, i.e rotate, you do indeed take up the crab technique to maintain the centreline.
Cat Driver:
Thanks for the reply. I am now at a loss as to where you are looking in this flare from the profile you have used. I have assumed from the intro that this was to prove a point to me? I cannot find having re-read the profile, where that info is......Can you further inlighten me? Maybe I am thick but please be patient with me! I can't for one minute believe you flare whilst looking right/left at the appropriate wing tip throughout the manueuvre. I have practised many a landing like the one you describe, normally in a Citabria or similar, but not beginning from the original profile you suggest. Even when flying the aircraft in my "day job" at night onto a max-crosswind landing, I am using the cockpit windows and or head/body position relative to the horizon ahead to get the roll cue, whilst still looking ahead for pitch attitude cues for the holdoff.
And yes, I indeed, depending on the type, always "boot" of the drift and apply wing down during the flare to touch down. Although I tend not to boot the rudder as granny in row 13 would be rather alarmed! More a case of "aligning the nose with the centreline by use of rudder" Same thing I know! I always get my roll cue from looking ahead. Whats your secret?
As to the camcorder, well yes I suppose I can't afford one really, not for the amount of use it would get. I only instruct/examine one day a week now. Its a hobby for me, so could think of other ways of spending that pocket money from instructing!
Anyway, sorry to drag guys, but please Cat, can you give me some more info. Cheers.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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Captairprox:
I have no idea why you would think I would be looking at the wing to judge the approach, or flare, or hold off and touch down.
I do think that using a key board to try and paint a picture is our problem here.
Let me try again. In the approach I described I must look at the flare point that I am aiming for from the time it comes in sight, then while still looking at the point of flare I control my bank attitude to avoid dragging the wing during the flare and hold off. Once the airplane is in a position in relation to the runway that I can see it through the windshield I judge the bank attitude while looking out the cockpit windshield. i.e. straight ahead in relation to the longitudinal axis of the airplane.
Were you and I are not on the same line of thought is my reference to not looking to far ahead. To put it simply there are flight instructors who teach the student to look up at the far end of the runway just prior to the flare, and keep looking way into the distance holding the airplane in the level attitude and ""feeling "" for the runway.
This usually results in an arrival.
I believe in flying the airplane with a sight picture that allows me to "fly" the airplane to a "landing" not an eventual "arrival".
Also the reference to the inverted ribbon pick up was only to point out the very simple fact that you have to look at the target. The point of flare on the runway is a target.
Now please e-mail me if you do not understand what I am describing and I will be most happy to clairify this further.
Do you agree with my beliefe that better pay will attract better flight instructors?
P.S.
My reference to " boot " the rudder was not meant to use a control imput that would produce anything other than smooth aircraft response.
Now tell me Captain, are you being condescending in the way you answer me? If you are, might it be the glare of those gold bars blinding you?
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
[ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]
I have no idea why you would think I would be looking at the wing to judge the approach, or flare, or hold off and touch down.
I do think that using a key board to try and paint a picture is our problem here.
Let me try again. In the approach I described I must look at the flare point that I am aiming for from the time it comes in sight, then while still looking at the point of flare I control my bank attitude to avoid dragging the wing during the flare and hold off. Once the airplane is in a position in relation to the runway that I can see it through the windshield I judge the bank attitude while looking out the cockpit windshield. i.e. straight ahead in relation to the longitudinal axis of the airplane.
Were you and I are not on the same line of thought is my reference to not looking to far ahead. To put it simply there are flight instructors who teach the student to look up at the far end of the runway just prior to the flare, and keep looking way into the distance holding the airplane in the level attitude and ""feeling "" for the runway.
This usually results in an arrival.
I believe in flying the airplane with a sight picture that allows me to "fly" the airplane to a "landing" not an eventual "arrival".
Also the reference to the inverted ribbon pick up was only to point out the very simple fact that you have to look at the target. The point of flare on the runway is a target.
Now please e-mail me if you do not understand what I am describing and I will be most happy to clairify this further.
Do you agree with my beliefe that better pay will attract better flight instructors?
P.S.
My reference to " boot " the rudder was not meant to use a control imput that would produce anything other than smooth aircraft response.
Now tell me Captain, are you being condescending in the way you answer me? If you are, might it be the glare of those gold bars blinding you?
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. [ 22 November 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]
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Cat, I wish I had the amount of bars that could cause such a reflection, thats assuming the pay scale is attached to it! I have emailed you for further chat.
I brought up the 'boot' comment because if I said that to half my students, they would do just that. As always the student listens explicitely to the phrases you don't mean and ignore the ones that you do! Oh well, I was and still am a student of aviation, so can't really complain. Don't think we will ever learn!
I brought up the 'boot' comment because if I said that to half my students, they would do just that. As always the student listens explicitely to the phrases you don't mean and ignore the ones that you do! Oh well, I was and still am a student of aviation, so can't really complain. Don't think we will ever learn!
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Landing is an art. You can make the approach into a science. Just use the rudder for pete's sake. Why does it usually take people 300hrs to realise that there are pedals on the floor. On the final approach, look at the numbers or wherever you like and use the rudders to position the aircraft on the centre line. Then use aileron to keep wings level. But once you've made a rudder input, hold it there, don't relax it, until you can see if you've applied too much or too little. What you need to realise is that you need to fly the A/C, don't sit back and let it fly you. The final approach and near the ground is the right place to appreciate the effects of the rudder. You may not be flying in balance anymore(not that anyone does anyway) but your positioning and alignment should be right
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Well Kouger....
Let me mull your question over for a second or two.
Why does it usually take people 300 hours to realize that there are pedals on the floor??
It couldn't be because of poor flight instructors that don't know either could it?
Hey, but there is a bright side to this, it gives us the opportunity to make money re-teaching them.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Let me mull your question over for a second or two.
Why does it usually take people 300 hours to realize that there are pedals on the floor??
It couldn't be because of poor flight instructors that don't know either could it?
Hey, but there is a bright side to this, it gives us the opportunity to make money re-teaching them.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
I am reminded at this point of a QFI friend who didn't realise for 10 minutes whilst teaching a pre-solo student that he had a stuck PTT. On realising he turned the radio off, landed, and phoned to apologise to a charming lady air trafficker.
QFI - explains, and apologises
ATC - "No problem, I just put all my military traffic over to UHF and ignored the civvies. But, could I just ask you one question".
QFI - "Glad about that, what's the question?"
ATC - "What's this 'bloodyrudder' that you kept telling your student to use"
Absolutely true, I was drinking coffee in the crewroom as he made the call.
G
QFI - explains, and apologises
ATC - "No problem, I just put all my military traffic over to UHF and ignored the civvies. But, could I just ask you one question".
QFI - "Glad about that, what's the question?"
ATC - "What's this 'bloodyrudder' that you kept telling your student to use"
Absolutely true, I was drinking coffee in the crewroom as he made the call.
G
