Demise of LARS
Guest
Posts: n/a
Demise of LARS
I heard Luton on the RTF saying they don't provide a FIS any more. They are shortly to move to LATCC and that will be the end of LARS in that busy corner of the TMA.
There are fewer and fewer units providing a service to aircraft outside controlled airspace (arguably those most in need of one) and less oportunity to gain its protection.
Does safety not matter outside controlled airspace any more? Who makes these decissions? Do we have a powerful boby available to voice our concerns?
There are fewer and fewer units providing a service to aircraft outside controlled airspace (arguably those most in need of one) and less oportunity to gain its protection.
Does safety not matter outside controlled airspace any more? Who makes these decissions? Do we have a powerful boby available to voice our concerns?
Guest
Posts: n/a
I heard the same thing this weekend. They were referring people to London Information.
I realise you meant "body" but I think boby (or booby) is a more accurate description of some of the representation that private flying gets in the UK, especially from the Guvmint.
I realise you meant "body" but I think boby (or booby) is a more accurate description of some of the representation that private flying gets in the UK, especially from the Guvmint.
Guest
Posts: n/a
I was droning back to Yorkshire from Le Touquet on Saturday and called up Essex Radar on their published frequency of 126.95. (I couldn't think of anyone else to talk to between Southend and Cambridge). The guy who responded sounded quite upset and asked me where I'd got the frequency from. Since I was bashing through the remains of a warm front, I rather fancied a LARS service and with the RAF/USAF shut for the weekend I thought I'd give him a try.......
Since I'm ex RAF, I always talk to the MATZ controllers whenever I can and when they're operating they give a super service. Incidentally, if you want a bit of fun on the radio over a weekend, try calling Cottesmore Zone (130.2). All I got in reply this weekend was: "Cottesmore is closed"!
Since I'm ex RAF, I always talk to the MATZ controllers whenever I can and when they're operating they give a super service. Incidentally, if you want a bit of fun on the radio over a weekend, try calling Cottesmore Zone (130.2). All I got in reply this weekend was: "Cottesmore is closed"!
Guest
Posts: n/a
I often travel along the east side of the country and just keep a listening watch on Essex Radar... someone to talk to quickly if the fan up front should stop spinning around.
They do seem busy and don't have time for the likes of me anymore.
During the week I always talk to the MATZ guys... great service... thing is that you don't know how busy they really are as they are also on the Ultra box.
Regarding the weekend cover I have noted that Fenton, Cottesmore, Conningsby, Marham, Coltishall, Dunsfold, Warton and Valley are usually closed... I think that only Waddington, Farnborough, Brize and Shawbury are open... easier to list them I think.
Luton will be a sad loss.
They do seem busy and don't have time for the likes of me anymore.
During the week I always talk to the MATZ guys... great service... thing is that you don't know how busy they really are as they are also on the Ultra box.
Regarding the weekend cover I have noted that Fenton, Cottesmore, Conningsby, Marham, Coltishall, Dunsfold, Warton and Valley are usually closed... I think that only Waddington, Farnborough, Brize and Shawbury are open... easier to list them I think.
Luton will be a sad loss.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Is there a BODY to argue the cause for keeping LARS services? Anyone?
I understand that ATC units are paid a six figure sum for providing a LARS (including Luton). It is a disgrace if they then refuse to provide a service!
East of Stansted you may get a (slightly) more friendly response from Essex Radar 120.62Mhz. Its the same controllers as Stansted Director, but better equipped to help.
[This message has been edited by Dan Dare (edited 13 September 2000).]
I understand that ATC units are paid a six figure sum for providing a LARS (including Luton). It is a disgrace if they then refuse to provide a service!
East of Stansted you may get a (slightly) more friendly response from Essex Radar 120.62Mhz. Its the same controllers as Stansted Director, but better equipped to help.
[This message has been edited by Dan Dare (edited 13 September 2000).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I gather from one of Lizzie's Flying Clubbers that they have certain issues with Luton, who aren't willing to talk to purple flights out of Northolt cos no money in it for BAA or whoever runs Luton these days. I have found that Essex Radar are quite helpful if not busy, eg late afternoon and evening, but otherwise no point calling them. I think that London Info are unfailingly wonderful, polite and do all they can to help, but obviously there is a limit to what they can do with so much space to cover and no radar. The absence of readily available radar service in the Luton/Stansted corridor is a matter of some concern.
Guest
Posts: n/a
What is the best procedure when crossing a MATZ at w/e's?
Until v recently, the friendly Americans at L'heath would offer flight information. Last w/e called both L'Heath and Marham and received no response. So what to do, eh?
I thought about a transmitting blind call, who, what, where, intention. I wondered whether I could just bimble through the MATZ. I then wondered whether I could penetrate the ATZ. In the end I actually avoided both and kept clear of D208 because no one could tell if it was active. Help pse!
Lovely scenic route by the way - Nottingham to Seething non-DCT.
sNr
Until v recently, the friendly Americans at L'heath would offer flight information. Last w/e called both L'Heath and Marham and received no response. So what to do, eh?
I thought about a transmitting blind call, who, what, where, intention. I wondered whether I could just bimble through the MATZ. I then wondered whether I could penetrate the ATZ. In the end I actually avoided both and kept clear of D208 because no one could tell if it was active. Help pse!
Lovely scenic route by the way - Nottingham to Seething non-DCT.
sNr
Guest
Posts: n/a
Stansted Director 126.95 is published but it is annotated "as directed", i.e you should only call this freq. when directed by Essex Radar. Initial contact freq. should be Essex Radar 120.625
[This message has been edited by babble (edited 13 September 2000).]
[This message has been edited by babble (edited 13 September 2000).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
OK. Dan Dare I would like to know where you got your freq for Essex Radar from cos I thought it was 120.62 and the 5 if someone out there wants to be pedantic.Not surprised if you got a less than enthsiastic response from a director. Now for you Stiknruda me old mate AL. YOU should not have to go round a MATZ a MATZ is what it says it is and as such is applicable to military aircraft, and as such there is no legal requirement for us to acknowledge it.Having said that common sense must apply and the r/t calls should be The made to seek penetration preferably 25 miles or 10 mins out.The A.T.Z.within MUST always be treated as live and permission to enter sought and obtained.I know we have two issues here one of correct R/T procedure and one of airmanship the latter seems to take second place these days,some just cant wait to press that button and start talking rather than looking out. I.M.C is another story though. WELL AL. THERE IS YOU HORNETS NEST I OPENED FOR YOU AS YOU GUSSED I WOULD.fallen eagle
Guest
Posts: n/a
and how long do you think that the MATZ's will last before they are replaced by ATZ's of the same dimensions, or bigger, if everyone suddenly starts enforcing their "right" to penetrate a MATZ.
I for one don't fancy getting on the pointy end of a fast thing to prove a point.
As far as I'm concerned I talk to the controller's before I go into a MATZ and if I don't get a response I steer clear just in case.
And before I get flamed I'm not a military pilot.
[This message has been edited by Gash Handlin (edited 19 September 2000).]
I for one don't fancy getting on the pointy end of a fast thing to prove a point.
As far as I'm concerned I talk to the controller's before I go into a MATZ and if I don't get a response I steer clear just in case.
And before I get flamed I'm not a military pilot.
[This message has been edited by Gash Handlin (edited 19 September 2000).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gash Handlin, I don't see this happening. We're not all going to enter MATZs unannounced because it's legal to do so, any more than we all fly 2001 feet above an ATZ without telling anyone because its legal, just. Commonsense, airmanship, and a desire to survive long enough to enjoy a little more flying tend to enter into the equation for most of us. But occasionally it's nice to know you don't absolutely HAVE to talk to someone - like when recently I took off from Sleap, was going to be inside Shawbury MATZ for about 30 seconds, had low cloud and other traffic to cope with, and really really didn't want to have to use the radio as well as all that. Does that make sense?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Let me see if I have got this right, now?
I can cross a MATZ without informing the Stn that 'owns' it.
If I want to penetrate their ATZ I must get prior permission.
If I elect to seek permission to penetrate a MATZ, should call 10 mins/25 miles in advance, but as I don't 'need' permission why do I ask as opposed to informing them?
But if I remain above 2000' I can bimble over the top of their SANGARs, Control Twr and the Officer's Mess.
Three weeks ago coming home from Fenland; I'd called Lakenheath on the outbound leg - no response. Called in the afternoon and was more than surprised to receive a response, "MATZ penetration approved remain clear of the ATZ".
L'heath MATZ is big!
If I don't have to call, how can they approve my incursion?"
More and more confused AND still waiting for a response to a previous thread about alerting someone at Strike HQ about my wee airstrip on my farm, as Tornados nip through my overhead at 250' v v frequently. All I want to do is let them know that it is there so they can keep a good look out for my aircraft landing/taking off.
sNr
I can cross a MATZ without informing the Stn that 'owns' it.
If I want to penetrate their ATZ I must get prior permission.
If I elect to seek permission to penetrate a MATZ, should call 10 mins/25 miles in advance, but as I don't 'need' permission why do I ask as opposed to informing them?
But if I remain above 2000' I can bimble over the top of their SANGARs, Control Twr and the Officer's Mess.
Three weeks ago coming home from Fenland; I'd called Lakenheath on the outbound leg - no response. Called in the afternoon and was more than surprised to receive a response, "MATZ penetration approved remain clear of the ATZ".
L'heath MATZ is big!
If I don't have to call, how can they approve my incursion?"
More and more confused AND still waiting for a response to a previous thread about alerting someone at Strike HQ about my wee airstrip on my farm, as Tornados nip through my overhead at 250' v v frequently. All I want to do is let them know that it is there so they can keep a good look out for my aircraft landing/taking off.
sNr
Guest
Posts: n/a
From "The Air Pilot's Manual" Vol 2 (Trevor Thom):
"A Military Air Traffic Zone (MATZ)is specified airspace surrounding many UK military aerodromes:
from the surface up to 3000 feet above aerodrome level within a radius of 5nm; and usually with a stub or studbs, width 4nm, extending out for a further 5nm along final approach paths for the main instrument runways between 1000 and 3000 ft above aerodrome level.
Pilots of civil aircraft wishing to penetrate a MATZ are strongly advised to do so under the control of the MATZ ATC authority, in accordance with published procedures.
Even if you should choose to ignore the MATZ airspace (which technically is non-regulated), there is, within the MATZ, an ATZ which must be observed at all times (most are 'H24', ie continuous)"
So there you are. I guess you "request MATZ penetration" instead of saying "OK guys, I'm coming through" simply to be polite and so that it's easier for them to inform you if you're about to be decapitated by a high speed jet. You "request frequency change" too (well, some of us do sometimes), when you really mean you're changing whether they like it or not. Not totally logical I agree, but there you are.
"A Military Air Traffic Zone (MATZ)is specified airspace surrounding many UK military aerodromes:
from the surface up to 3000 feet above aerodrome level within a radius of 5nm; and usually with a stub or studbs, width 4nm, extending out for a further 5nm along final approach paths for the main instrument runways between 1000 and 3000 ft above aerodrome level.
Pilots of civil aircraft wishing to penetrate a MATZ are strongly advised to do so under the control of the MATZ ATC authority, in accordance with published procedures.
Even if you should choose to ignore the MATZ airspace (which technically is non-regulated), there is, within the MATZ, an ATZ which must be observed at all times (most are 'H24', ie continuous)"
So there you are. I guess you "request MATZ penetration" instead of saying "OK guys, I'm coming through" simply to be polite and so that it's easier for them to inform you if you're about to be decapitated by a high speed jet. You "request frequency change" too (well, some of us do sometimes), when you really mean you're changing whether they like it or not. Not totally logical I agree, but there you are.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Gee, thanks, Gash Handlin; you can call me eloquent any time you want 
Probably means you'll have to put up with my posting on these forums even more than I have been recently (not much work, bored). and I've even lerned to use PPRuNe smilies now
Probably means you'll have to put up with my posting on these forums even more than I have been recently (not much work, bored). and I've even lerned to use PPRuNe smilies now
Guest
Posts: n/a
Returning to Humberside from Elstree a couple of years ago and after the intensity of the Luton corridor and Essex radar and considering it was about 19.00 I decided not to talk to anybody and simply enjoy the peace of a summer evening.
I came as close to an airborne AWAC as I ever want to be... I am convinced to this day that he headed my way just to shake me up having the audacity to overfly the Waddo area squawking 7000 and keeping myself to myself.
I came as close to an airborne AWAC as I ever want to be... I am convinced to this day that he headed my way just to shake me up having the audacity to overfly the Waddo area squawking 7000 and keeping myself to myself.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Beagler, that reminds me of what happened to a friend going from Soton to Cardiff. She was receiving FIS and was advised of 3 Hercs in her immediate area. She scanned about all over the place and could not see the big birds. Then she looked over her shoulder and saw a Herc half a mile behind each wingtip with the 3rd between them, all hanging on their props trying to stay at her 110 knot cruise. She waggled the wings to let them know they'd been spotted and they pulled up and away leaving her laughing her head off. All very naughty I suppose but safe enough.
------------------
The 16 men of Tain are unsung heroes. CubTrek. To slowly go.....
------------------
The 16 men of Tain are unsung heroes. CubTrek. To slowly go.....