Professionals
Guest
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Professionals
I have been lurking since the Pilot article and have been galavnised into posting (see the other forum) by Hungry Pilot virtually accusing me of being "unprofessional".
To me professionalism is not just about taking money for your services but encompasses your overall approach to flying including risk assessment etc, etc.
But when trucking around I do get annoyed by PPLs sounding unprofessional on the RT... the standards are so poor, guys umming and ahhing and bleating their life stories on a busy frequency.
Come on guys... do better
To me professionalism is not just about taking money for your services but encompasses your overall approach to flying including risk assessment etc, etc.
But when trucking around I do get annoyed by PPLs sounding unprofessional on the RT... the standards are so poor, guys umming and ahhing and bleating their life stories on a busy frequency.
Come on guys... do better
Guest
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Thanks for the comment Beagler about RT.
And I tend to agree, some (very much a minority), sound like CB radio jerks.
Speaking of phrazeology, my pet hate is the mandatory use in OZ of the phrase "All stations such and such, this is bla bla bla".
It used to be, "Such and such traffic this is bla bla bla".
To me, stations refers to a radio unit on the ground, traffic refers to aircraft.
And I tend to agree, some (very much a minority), sound like CB radio jerks.
Speaking of phrazeology, my pet hate is the mandatory use in OZ of the phrase "All stations such and such, this is bla bla bla".
It used to be, "Such and such traffic this is bla bla bla".
To me, stations refers to a radio unit on the ground, traffic refers to aircraft.
Guest
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Are you operating in Oz?
Unfortunately in the UK I believe the Authorities suspended the RT oral for a while and things went from bad to worse.
It isn't a minority over here.
Always try to sound like an off-duty Jumbo pilot, you get better attention from the ATC and clearances through airspace because the guy on the ground trusts you as a fellow Pro.
I frorget that the Ozzys make a lot of blind calls in their vast airspace.
Unfortunately in the UK I believe the Authorities suspended the RT oral for a while and things went from bad to worse.
It isn't a minority over here.
Always try to sound like an off-duty Jumbo pilot, you get better attention from the ATC and clearances through airspace because the guy on the ground trusts you as a fellow Pro.
I frorget that the Ozzys make a lot of blind calls in their vast airspace.
Guest
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Understood... of course we have to make allowances for learners but the overall standards have dropped off. Too many lazy PPLs who should study CAP whatever. Perhaps the skills test/check will address this.
Talking of laziness I actually did some PFLs when out last week.
Enjoyed myself.
Talking of laziness I actually did some PFLs when out last week.
Enjoyed myself.
Guest
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I think it is a confidence thing, if I haven't flown for a couple of weeks I get quite bad on the RT. It only takes a couple of calls to your local ATC before you are back in the swing.
I must say that I don't think the standard is that bad (this probably means that I DON'T sound like an off-duty 744 skip.) I think the worst seems to be London information on 124.6 but that seems to be mostly due to traffic calling them and not hearing the controller reply. (It always amazes me that someone will call 124.6 without first waiting to hear the controller, do they think that 124.6 is just very quiet today). The times I have had to relay are ...well once.
I must say that I don't think the standard is that bad (this probably means that I DON'T sound like an off-duty 744 skip.) I think the worst seems to be London information on 124.6 but that seems to be mostly due to traffic calling them and not hearing the controller reply. (It always amazes me that someone will call 124.6 without first waiting to hear the controller, do they think that 124.6 is just very quiet today). The times I have had to relay are ...well once.
Guest
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There does seem to be a lack of formal training on RT during the PPL. Most instructors seem content to let people pick it up as they go along. There are audio tapes and PC programmes available to help the struggling.
Knowing what you need to say and keep it concise seeems to be the key points.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
Knowing what you need to say and keep it concise seeems to be the key points.
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
Guest
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It seems to depend on when you did your PPL. When I did mine it was a bit a case of muddling through, but since JAR there is a practical test. However, I've been told by a friend who's been flying for yers and years that there was a practical test in the past, then it was stopped - so it's just those of us from the few years in between. But I agree - know what you want to say, keep it brief, and don't panic; if you forget something the controller will simply ask you for it if he wants to know.
Guest
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I recall doing a practical test, well two - one on initial issuance in RSA and another here (UK) on conversion.
Some days I manage to sound like an off-duty Speedbird driver, others like an immigrant taxi driver.
On well - best go fly this afternoon so that I can practice more RT!
sNr
Some days I manage to sound like an off-duty Speedbird driver, others like an immigrant taxi driver.
On well - best go fly this afternoon so that I can practice more RT!
sNr
Guest
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As an alternative, fly non-radio and save the confusion. If you plan your flying safely and carefully you DON'T HAVE TO TALK TO ANYBODY even in our crowded airspace.
PS It does help to have a hand held for when you are "temporarily uncertain of your position". Thanks D&D you do a wonderful job!
PPS East Anglia is great for this, lot's of uncontrolled airspace and quite a few taildragger friendly fields around
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
PS It does help to have a hand held for when you are "temporarily uncertain of your position". Thanks D&D you do a wonderful job!
PPS East Anglia is great for this, lot's of uncontrolled airspace and quite a few taildragger friendly fields around
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When the wheels stop turning you're high enuff. CubTrek. To slowly go...
Guest
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Beagler, the word 'professionalism' has come to mean other than 'earns living from task'. It is a sign of respect and is entirely subjective. Which means that if an opinion on your 'professionalism' comes from a peer or colleague who's views you yourself respect, it is a great compliment. If on the other hand it comes from a complete to**er like HP then just stifle the yawn and carry on with life.
As for radio chatter - I spent 25 years in the military doing it. Here are a few personal observations based on the thread so far:
1. Private Pilots don't get the hours that flight crews get, so their R/T is never going to be as fluid or as full of current slang. 'G'dday' as a signoff is one of my favourites!
2. When your workload is high, it's difficult to tell someone where you are, AND where you're heading, AND your height/altitude. The odd ums and ahs are bound to creep in if you're out of practice.
3. 124.6 London FIR covers a huge area and I have listened to controllers chattering away to a callsign I couldn't hear at the other end of the country. Hardly surprising then that some of us start transmitting apparently without checking first. I came through Cranfield the other day and was asked to report overhead the Henton beacon heading north to their overhead. I couldn't get a word in edgeways, and by the time I did, I was already through their zone and well out the other side!
4. Finally, if you are stuck, forget the 'procedure' bit and just talk to the guy. I's OK to tell him you're having difficulty mainataining VMC dodging Cu-Nims - he/she is only human and will probably be delighted to help you out. Mostly. Unless its ***on Zone in which case you're on your own......
As for radio chatter - I spent 25 years in the military doing it. Here are a few personal observations based on the thread so far:
1. Private Pilots don't get the hours that flight crews get, so their R/T is never going to be as fluid or as full of current slang. 'G'dday' as a signoff is one of my favourites!
2. When your workload is high, it's difficult to tell someone where you are, AND where you're heading, AND your height/altitude. The odd ums and ahs are bound to creep in if you're out of practice.
3. 124.6 London FIR covers a huge area and I have listened to controllers chattering away to a callsign I couldn't hear at the other end of the country. Hardly surprising then that some of us start transmitting apparently without checking first. I came through Cranfield the other day and was asked to report overhead the Henton beacon heading north to their overhead. I couldn't get a word in edgeways, and by the time I did, I was already through their zone and well out the other side!
4. Finally, if you are stuck, forget the 'procedure' bit and just talk to the guy. I's OK to tell him you're having difficulty mainataining VMC dodging Cu-Nims - he/she is only human and will probably be delighted to help you out. Mostly. Unless its ***on Zone in which case you're on your own......
Guest
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I agree, Rightstuffer, ATCOs are human, which means some can be nice and some absolute bastards.
I discovered this very soon after getting my PPL; I was scared stiff of talking on the radio as I'd been given a hard time as a student by some of the real bastards. However, I got lost in poor visibility and finally HAD to tell D & D, by which time I was three miles from Birmingham Airport. Birmingham Approach were absolutely wonderful, kept reassuring me as they directed me safely out of their airspace, and almost wouldn't let me go when I was approaching the end of their radar coverage: "Well you can stay with me for another 10 miles if you like; you don't have to talk to anyone new yet if you don't feel up to it".
More recently, I was doing the "Dawn to Dusk" with a friend, and we needed a photo of something right in the middle of Luton's Zone, at 8.15 am, when they were obviously extremely busy. I called, asked for zone transit and explained why, expecting to be told to go away. Instead they cleared us to enter, with the enquiry: "Will you be there long?" I still can't believe it!
I discovered this very soon after getting my PPL; I was scared stiff of talking on the radio as I'd been given a hard time as a student by some of the real bastards. However, I got lost in poor visibility and finally HAD to tell D & D, by which time I was three miles from Birmingham Airport. Birmingham Approach were absolutely wonderful, kept reassuring me as they directed me safely out of their airspace, and almost wouldn't let me go when I was approaching the end of their radar coverage: "Well you can stay with me for another 10 miles if you like; you don't have to talk to anyone new yet if you don't feel up to it".
More recently, I was doing the "Dawn to Dusk" with a friend, and we needed a photo of something right in the middle of Luton's Zone, at 8.15 am, when they were obviously extremely busy. I called, asked for zone transit and explained why, expecting to be told to go away. Instead they cleared us to enter, with the enquiry: "Will you be there long?" I still can't believe it!
Guest
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new bloke and rightstuffer
Hi a couple of comments:
1) London Information on 124.6 is a Flight Information Service the same as any small airfield with the r/t callsign 'Information'. It is not staffed by air traffic controllers rather by a Flight Information Service Officer. This makes a big difference to the service on offer.
2) some of the comments regarding r/t standards are unfortunately true. We ATCOs, many of whom are active or lapsed PPLs, speak on the r/t all day every working day so we are used to it. We do understand that most PPLs don't and that their r/t won't be as fluent.
This said the better you sound then the more likely you are to get what you want. If I'm busy the last thing I want is someone who is incoherent or who witters their life story to me at the worst possible moment. If you're locally based we soon get to recognise voices and can often put names, faces and abilities to them too.
As an ATCO I would much prefer to know who the primary only or 7000 squawk is than to have to guess who you are, where you're going and how you plan to get there. This is especially true if your transponder doesn't have Mode C (altitude encoding) as many commercial a/c have TCAS which assumes the worst that anything without Mode C is at the same altitude and is therefore a threat even though you may be many hundreds or thousands of feet below. You may only get a brief acknowledgement of your call but the ATCO is probably a little happier as he now has a fuller picture of the traffic environment. For your part you are now getting a Flight Information and Alerting service.
On the subject of getting to know your local ATCOs why not enquire about visits to the tower as this builds up a rapport with ATC. If you're a member of a club why not organise a few of you to look round at the same time?
It would also be worthwhile enquiring of ATC whether they run an r/t course. I know some units do.
safe and happy flying
Hi a couple of comments:
1) London Information on 124.6 is a Flight Information Service the same as any small airfield with the r/t callsign 'Information'. It is not staffed by air traffic controllers rather by a Flight Information Service Officer. This makes a big difference to the service on offer.
2) some of the comments regarding r/t standards are unfortunately true. We ATCOs, many of whom are active or lapsed PPLs, speak on the r/t all day every working day so we are used to it. We do understand that most PPLs don't and that their r/t won't be as fluent.
This said the better you sound then the more likely you are to get what you want. If I'm busy the last thing I want is someone who is incoherent or who witters their life story to me at the worst possible moment. If you're locally based we soon get to recognise voices and can often put names, faces and abilities to them too.
As an ATCO I would much prefer to know who the primary only or 7000 squawk is than to have to guess who you are, where you're going and how you plan to get there. This is especially true if your transponder doesn't have Mode C (altitude encoding) as many commercial a/c have TCAS which assumes the worst that anything without Mode C is at the same altitude and is therefore a threat even though you may be many hundreds or thousands of feet below. You may only get a brief acknowledgement of your call but the ATCO is probably a little happier as he now has a fuller picture of the traffic environment. For your part you are now getting a Flight Information and Alerting service.
On the subject of getting to know your local ATCOs why not enquire about visits to the tower as this builds up a rapport with ATC. If you're a member of a club why not organise a few of you to look round at the same time?
It would also be worthwhile enquiring of ATC whether they run an r/t course. I know some units do.
safe and happy flying
Guest
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Wow... things have livened up here.
I am not perfect... been out to Blackpool today and forgot to book out in my haste to leave within the 2 hour limit... the ATCO kept me waiting for 10-15 mins before I could book out on RT... the £5 saved was soon lost (-:
RT... it is good to view things as a team effort...pilot and ATCO, and respect his/her time especially if the frequency is busy.
My response after 10 minutes of waiing was very concise and quick.
I have a rule of letting them know "who I am,
where I am from, where I am going, my present position and what I require" in that order... seems to work.
Also I think before I transmit... what I am going to say and what I expect hear in response.
Enjoying the new forum.
I am not perfect... been out to Blackpool today and forgot to book out in my haste to leave within the 2 hour limit... the ATCO kept me waiting for 10-15 mins before I could book out on RT... the £5 saved was soon lost (-:
RT... it is good to view things as a team effort...pilot and ATCO, and respect his/her time especially if the frequency is busy.
My response after 10 minutes of waiing was very concise and quick.
I have a rule of letting them know "who I am,
where I am from, where I am going, my present position and what I require" in that order... seems to work.
Also I think before I transmit... what I am going to say and what I expect hear in response.
Enjoying the new forum.
Guest
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Granny Smith, when I was a student I was always sure everyone knew it was me stammering and stuttering out my life history on the radio; later I decided that was paranoia and they couldn't possibly have remembered; now I know I was right in the first place!
Guest
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There was an old boy somwewhere in West London who did R/T instruction...I remember sitting at a table with a lash-up practice rig, pretending to fly a Viscount with one engine on fire, passenger having triplets etc etc, old buffer in other room being ATC, and the kit somehow picking up the local minicab firm to add the chaos! I made other arrangements.....
[This message has been edited by gravity victim (edited 30 August 2000).]
[This message has been edited by gravity victim (edited 30 August 2000).]
