Logbook hours
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what a bunch of crap ! Hobbs time is just as accurate as 'watch time' especially when you go to add up the time you have at the end of the 24 months, and you keep making mistakes !
so what if the odd minute here or there is incorrectly logged...it'll even out ? Do pilots loggin instrument time have a 'cloud timer' to log time in actual IMC ? Thought not ! At the end of the day if I time myself using my wrist watch and I log take off at 'about 12:30' and landing at '14:32', then I'm sure errors are going to creep in, more so than using a Hobbs. Besides, my theory is that as soon as the engine is started, then the PIC is IC of the AC!!
so what if the odd minute here or there is incorrectly logged...it'll even out ? Do pilots loggin instrument time have a 'cloud timer' to log time in actual IMC ? Thought not ! At the end of the day if I time myself using my wrist watch and I log take off at 'about 12:30' and landing at '14:32', then I'm sure errors are going to creep in, more so than using a Hobbs. Besides, my theory is that as soon as the engine is started, then the PIC is IC of the AC!!
englishal - it's you who's talking cr@p, I'm afraid. The Hobbs meter is not a sufficiently accurate method for recording valid flight time. Which is the time from 'chocks away' to 'chocks under' in any case - not from engine start/battery master on. If you've been logging hours by the Hobbs and have used those hours for licensing purposes, technically you could be considered to have falsely represented your flight time....
You become 'Commander of the aeroplane' long before the engine is started; if one of your passengers falls off the wing when embarking, it's you who will be held to blame if you haven't briefed them properly....
[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
You become 'Commander of the aeroplane' long before the engine is started; if one of your passengers falls off the wing when embarking, it's you who will be held to blame if you haven't briefed them properly....
[ 04 November 2001: Message edited by: BEagle ]
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I'm sure a Hobbs is more accurate than many wind up wrist watches!
At the club I fly at in the UK we log time from take-off to landing, for billing purposes, then add 0.1 (or 6 minutes for the non decimal loggers) either side for taxy, for log book purposes. Hardly accurate is it? So as far as I'm concerned people can log the time how they see fit (as long as its not grossly in error), as inaccuracies will creep in using which ever method. All this arguement does is add to the already growing mound of beauracy which is boggin down GA in the UK to such an extent that people no longer want to fly there !
At the club I fly at in the UK we log time from take-off to landing, for billing purposes, then add 0.1 (or 6 minutes for the non decimal loggers) either side for taxy, for log book purposes. Hardly accurate is it? So as far as I'm concerned people can log the time how they see fit (as long as its not grossly in error), as inaccuracies will creep in using which ever method. All this arguement does is add to the already growing mound of beauracy which is boggin down GA in the UK to such an extent that people no longer want to fly there !
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Final 3 Greens
Maybe that's the whole problem - just like the market trader in Sunderland who refuses to weigh his goods in decimal. I do see both sides of this argument - my point was that logging Hobbs was straightforward and difficult to argue with (I was clearly wrong!)... The real arguments in this thread seem to revolve around "that's the way it's always been" - maybe it's worth questioning things once in a while... (and I can add up hours and minutes - just think that the yanks have it right with this one! 
Lastly, I am a Brit, I'm afraid - just living in the warmth for a few years to thaw out
We Brits have been around for thousands of years
Lastly, I am a Brit, I'm afraid - just living in the warmth for a few years to thaw out
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Beagle::
Do you actually brief your passengers not to fall off the wing?
Hell look at the other side of flying , someday you won't be bothered logging time in your personal log as it will have no meaning to you anymore.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Do you actually brief your passengers not to fall off the wing? Hell look at the other side of flying , someday you won't be bothered logging time in your personal log as it will have no meaning to you anymore.
............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
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The day that happens, I'll give it up. Your log book is your history of the priviledge you have had every time you get airbourne. I will always log my flying to the day I die. To stop suggests you have learnt all there is to know which in my book means a quick road to a statistic.
Is it not a JAR requirement that flights be logged to the nearest minute?
I know in Jerez the CFI had Pooleys print us all up new logbooks that complied with the CAA inspection rules for JAR Approval and in them we were clearly instructed that decimal was no longer allowed. Which rained on my parade a little.
Or is this not the case?
WWW
I know in Jerez the CFI had Pooleys print us all up new logbooks that complied with the CAA inspection rules for JAR Approval and in them we were clearly instructed that decimal was no longer allowed. Which rained on my parade a little.
Or is this not the case?
WWW
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Captain Airprox
I agree with you entirely,to fly and not log it, is to not fly at all !
My logbook is kept with clinical accuracy and I cherish each flight I enter, the same now as I did on my first lesson eleven years ago.
A logbook is not just a record of flights made, it a record of your acheivement.
Long live the logbook !
I agree with you entirely,to fly and not log it, is to not fly at all !
My logbook is kept with clinical accuracy and I cherish each flight I enter, the same now as I did on my first lesson eleven years ago.
A logbook is not just a record of flights made, it a record of your acheivement.
Long live the logbook !
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I fly in the UK and get charged by Hobbs time which begins ticking when the master goes on. If the CAA think I should not be entitled to log all of this time then they should ensure that FTO's only charge chocks off to chocks on time.
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Hi, Captairprox - Jepp - Julian:
Please allow me to elaborate further on why I no longer bother to keep a personal log book.
When I first started flying in 1953 I was as psssionate about logging every second of my flying time as you are. However, now nearly fifty years later I see no real reason to keep a personal log book to record every second. However I am writing a book that will record a great amount of the love affair I have had with flying.
On the practical side of things it is highly unlikely I will be asked by an airline to show a log book to verify my time,unless they change the over sixty rule.
I just remembered something, there is a web site where several of my short stories are available should you wish to read some very interesting flights. Go to www.ebushpilot.com and just look for the stories section of that web site and read " Arcturus the missing hours and fate" also "The tobacco fields" and I believe there is one on a trip I recently did through Africa on a ferry flight in a PBY.
If you wish to spend about thirty pounds or so buy the book " Un vol de legende sur les traces de L'Aeropostale ". The ISBN number is 2-235-02238-3
Anyhow enough of that as I do not wish to bore you just talking about me. The point I am making is that there "may" come a time in your career when you will no longer log every flight.
And oh, by the way Captairprox even though I no longer log every second of my time you are absouletly correct that we should never assume we know everything about flying. I agree with you, that is truly the sign of an idiot.
We also fly for the movie industry mostly in the U.K. e-mail me and I can give you some more web sites if any of you are interested.
And don't forget...Even though you log all your time...Remember...
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]
Please allow me to elaborate further on why I no longer bother to keep a personal log book.
When I first started flying in 1953 I was as psssionate about logging every second of my flying time as you are. However, now nearly fifty years later I see no real reason to keep a personal log book to record every second. However I am writing a book that will record a great amount of the love affair I have had with flying.
On the practical side of things it is highly unlikely I will be asked by an airline to show a log book to verify my time,unless they change the over sixty rule.
I just remembered something, there is a web site where several of my short stories are available should you wish to read some very interesting flights. Go to www.ebushpilot.com and just look for the stories section of that web site and read " Arcturus the missing hours and fate" also "The tobacco fields" and I believe there is one on a trip I recently did through Africa on a ferry flight in a PBY.
If you wish to spend about thirty pounds or so buy the book " Un vol de legende sur les traces de L'Aeropostale ". The ISBN number is 2-235-02238-3
Anyhow enough of that as I do not wish to bore you just talking about me. The point I am making is that there "may" come a time in your career when you will no longer log every flight.
And oh, by the way Captairprox even though I no longer log every second of my time you are absouletly correct that we should never assume we know everything about flying. I agree with you, that is truly the sign of an idiot.
We also fly for the movie industry mostly in the U.K. e-mail me and I can give you some more web sites if any of you are interested.
And don't forget...Even though you log all your time...Remember...
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no. [ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: Cat Driver ]
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Quote: Is it not a JAR requirement that flights be logged to the nearest minute?
I know in Jerez the CFI had Pooleys print us all up new logbooks that complied with the CAA inspection rules for JAR Approval and in them we were clearly instructed that decimal was no longer allowed.
Well, I have a "US" logbook, all my flight time is logged in decimal and the CAA don't have a problem with it, indeed they issued a JAR licence based upon this offending logbook. If you ask me its just being padantic to worry about such minor things as what your log book looks like, so long as time is logged accurately. Do many British pilots really sit around for hours and discuss how their logbooks look
? (Maybe this is why the big flight training places charge so much money....).....
I know in Jerez the CFI had Pooleys print us all up new logbooks that complied with the CAA inspection rules for JAR Approval and in them we were clearly instructed that decimal was no longer allowed.
Well, I have a "US" logbook, all my flight time is logged in decimal and the CAA don't have a problem with it, indeed they issued a JAR licence based upon this offending logbook. If you ask me its just being padantic to worry about such minor things as what your log book looks like, so long as time is logged accurately. Do many British pilots really sit around for hours and discuss how their logbooks look
? (Maybe this is why the big flight training places charge so much money....).....
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Logged every hour I've done. Your logbook is a diary - at least that's the way I see it. I quite often put daft comments in against entries.
Always been done in decimal, and I'm a Brit.....Forget all of this writing chox off to chox on malarky
Always been done in decimal, and I'm a Brit.....Forget all of this writing chox off to chox on malarky
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White Knight - Thank god someone is like me!!! I still put the odd comment on mine, outlining a good or bad achievement. (Such as a smooth landing!!!! Doesn't happen much!!) Seriously, I even put down who I have sent first solo. It is as much a day for me as for them, to see the worry b4 then glee after stepping out the aircraft, legs like jelly. That was the day!
My old boss had tens of thousands of hours under his belt. Having retired from the RAF, and now instructing full time, he still logs them all meticulously and even sticks a picture in his book of any new aircraft that he test flies.
He says that he tries hard with his experience not to become complacent. And this should go as far as filling out his record of flying. He says you never know when you might just need it in court! I have great respect for this guy.
[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
My old boss had tens of thousands of hours under his belt. Having retired from the RAF, and now instructing full time, he still logs them all meticulously and even sticks a picture in his book of any new aircraft that he test flies.
He says that he tries hard with his experience not to become complacent. And this should go as far as filling out his record of flying. He says you never know when you might just need it in court! I have great respect for this guy.
[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: CaptAirProx ]
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In Canada there is a requirement in law to fill out the aircraft log as soon as practical after each flight. When flying aircraft registered in other countries I record the flights for legal reasons.
Therefore should I need proof of any flight for any reason it can be found in the airplane log.
I must say though that I sometimes wish I had a personal log with pictures and comments, it would be really nice to have and I admire those who take the time to keep such a log.
However it is my opinion that not keeping a personal pilot log book has no bearing on being proessional, either in flying skills or safety.
Unless almost fifty years and in excess of 25,000 hours ( Transport Canada records )and still flying world wide for a living without an accident or incident or violation was just pure luck.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.
Therefore should I need proof of any flight for any reason it can be found in the airplane log.
I must say though that I sometimes wish I had a personal log with pictures and comments, it would be really nice to have and I admire those who take the time to keep such a log.
However it is my opinion that not keeping a personal pilot log book has no bearing on being proessional, either in flying skills or safety.
Unless almost fifty years and in excess of 25,000 hours ( Transport Canada records )and still flying world wide for a living without an accident or incident or violation was just pure luck.
.............................................
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no.