Fly 'em like an airliner?
Victim of Blackmailing Scouser
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Fly 'em like an airliner?
Well do you?
The recent thread on landings seems to have digressed (nicely, I might add) into a discussion on differing philosophies as how to fly a light aircraft.
My simple question is whether a light aircraft can and should be flown like a much larger aircraft? Three degree approaches, cross-country-circuits, and nailing the speed to 'exactly 54 knots', indicates an airliner culture, methinks. Not a 'wrong' culture, but a 'different' one.
T'other camp is far more seat-of-pants than this. It's also where I've set up my tent, to be honest.
Discuss.
TW
The recent thread on landings seems to have digressed (nicely, I might add) into a discussion on differing philosophies as how to fly a light aircraft.
My simple question is whether a light aircraft can and should be flown like a much larger aircraft? Three degree approaches, cross-country-circuits, and nailing the speed to 'exactly 54 knots', indicates an airliner culture, methinks. Not a 'wrong' culture, but a 'different' one.
T'other camp is far more seat-of-pants than this. It's also where I've set up my tent, to be honest.
Discuss.
TW
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I think we must be camping on the same site!
To fly a light aircraft like a heavy aircraft ingores the fundamental nature of the aircraft you're are flying. What professional pilot would ignore anything different about the type he was flying?
So three degree approachs, and x-country circuits are out, but precision in light aircraft flying DOES get my my vote. If the POH/FM says 54 knots, you should try to fly at 54 knots. You'll fail of course, but to try is divine and to fail is just human.
Jonathon Livingston tacpot.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: tacpot ]
To fly a light aircraft like a heavy aircraft ingores the fundamental nature of the aircraft you're are flying. What professional pilot would ignore anything different about the type he was flying?
So three degree approachs, and x-country circuits are out, but precision in light aircraft flying DOES get my my vote. If the POH/FM says 54 knots, you should try to fly at 54 knots. You'll fail of course, but to try is divine and to fail is just human.
Jonathon Livingston tacpot.
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: tacpot ]
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Agreed, its the freedom and 'seat of the pants' aspect of light aircraft flying that is so unique and fun. Be precise but enjoy the flying, enjoy the views, enjoy challenging yourself on approaches into strips etc.
Kermie
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I thought it would have been to everyone's advantage to fly as accurate as possible.
What's the point of just bimbling around at any old speed. As said above, if the book say 92kts, then try for 92kts, accurate
timing and naviagation.
After a while it should become second nature and makes the step up to bigger, better things much easier.
BTW, what's a cross country "circuit"?
GA
What's the point of just bimbling around at any old speed. As said above, if the book say 92kts, then try for 92kts, accurate
timing and naviagation.
After a while it should become second nature and makes the step up to bigger, better things much easier.
BTW, what's a cross country "circuit"?
GA
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Tricky thats partly why I decided to learn on Tigers. Cessnas and stuff are flown and treated like airliners despite being so small and i cant stand that. And I also hate all this VOR needle, tracking radar talk. Sounds like something youd expect in an airliner.
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Simon W,
You'll see 'cross country circuits' demonstrated at an airfield near you.
Take powerful binoculars.
TW
You'll see 'cross country circuits' demonstrated at an airfield near you.
Take powerful binoculars.
TW
Dir. PPRuNe Line Service
In his book "Make Better Landings" Alan Bramson has this to say about extended circuits :
"One school with a reputation for this technique was the Norfolk and Essex Flying Club, so-called because its circuits took in most of the county of Norfolk and all of Essex."
--Mik
"One school with a reputation for this technique was the Norfolk and Essex Flying Club, so-called because its circuits took in most of the county of Norfolk and all of Essex."
--Mik
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Fly accurately at all times in every aeroplane you captain - but bomber command circuits are for bombers. And 3 degree approaches and rotate speeds are for multi engine parrafin burners off loooong runways -both are WRONG for SE light aircraft. IMHO, of course ;~)
SSD
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SD
How about engine failure at 2 mile final??
How about causing an aerial taffic jam as your 3 degree approach neccesites a mega final (therefore a bomber circuit) to fit it in?
In a SE VFR light aircraft, keep it tight, keep it close, keep it professional.
SSD
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: Shaggy Sheep Driver ]
How about engine failure at 2 mile final??
How about causing an aerial taffic jam as your 3 degree approach neccesites a mega final (therefore a bomber circuit) to fit it in?
In a SE VFR light aircraft, keep it tight, keep it close, keep it professional.
SSD
[ 20 August 2001: Message edited by: Shaggy Sheep Driver ]
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How`s your flying going Tiger Moth, are you having trouble getting it on the ground properly. You and I operate at the same speed, about 60 knots and I don`t think big circuits suit either of us.
Mike W
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Shaggy Sheep -- you are mixing up a number of issues. I always fly 3 degree approaches --- but have never flown a two mile final while VFR except when forced to by others who lack pattern discipline. When I do have to extend --- I push over on final when the approach is 3 degrees. What's the problem? (A 3 degree IFR approach is required by the procedure. Surely you are not arguing with that.)
I wish everyone would fly 3 degree approaches --- these guys that drag it in in the weeds scare the hell out of me.
I wish everyone would fly 3 degree approaches --- these guys that drag it in in the weeds scare the hell out of me.
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SD
if you fly a 3 degree approach even at 2 miles you'd only be at 600 feet !! Just how low do you turn final??
How do you combine a neat visual ciruit with 3 degree approach??
3 degrees *is* dragging it in through the weeds - chop the power on final and see how far short of the field you'll fall.
Yes, for IFR procedure traffic the ILS is usually 3 degrees. It's optimised for multi engine jet transports, not SE light aircraft.
SSD
if you fly a 3 degree approach even at 2 miles you'd only be at 600 feet !! Just how low do you turn final??
How do you combine a neat visual ciruit with 3 degree approach??
3 degrees *is* dragging it in through the weeds - chop the power on final and see how far short of the field you'll fall.
Yes, for IFR procedure traffic the ILS is usually 3 degrees. It's optimised for multi engine jet transports, not SE light aircraft.
SSD
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Mr Static,
Some of us consider a three degree approach in a light aircraft flying VFR to be 'dragging it through the weeds'.
I fully agree that an IFR approach is more often at three degrees, seeing as that's the usual ILS glideslope, or whatever. However, I think this discussion is concentrating on VFR circuits and approaches. Presumably you only ever fly on IMC days?
TW
Some of us consider a three degree approach in a light aircraft flying VFR to be 'dragging it through the weeds'.
I fully agree that an IFR approach is more often at three degrees, seeing as that's the usual ILS glideslope, or whatever. However, I think this discussion is concentrating on VFR circuits and approaches. Presumably you only ever fly on IMC days?
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I prefer the 45 degree rule when I'm in the circuit. That is, if the threshold (or a threshold) is less than 45 degrees to me then I may well not make it back if the donk stops.
This was brought home to me back in 84 when I was flying a VP1 (arguably one of the draggiest machines around). I had an engine failure at 1500 feet upwind of the airfield on a straight climbout (wind down the runway at c.12kts).
I elected to go back to the field because I considered I had enough height to do so. The drag effect was similar to a C150 with full flap on approach. I made it back to the active threshold but only by flying a steady, shallow 360 degree turn. A conventional circuit would not have got me back to it.
Thereafter, I have always tried to make my circuits and approaches tight enough to at least get to the field boundary should I lose power.
This was brought home to me back in 84 when I was flying a VP1 (arguably one of the draggiest machines around). I had an engine failure at 1500 feet upwind of the airfield on a straight climbout (wind down the runway at c.12kts).
I elected to go back to the field because I considered I had enough height to do so. The drag effect was similar to a C150 with full flap on approach. I made it back to the active threshold but only by flying a steady, shallow 360 degree turn. A conventional circuit would not have got me back to it.
Thereafter, I have always tried to make my circuits and approaches tight enough to at least get to the field boundary should I lose power.
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I'm very surprised by these comments recommending a "do it yourself glideslope."
How often is it that engines suddenly fail during the last 1.5 minutes of the approach? 1 in a million? Perhaps.
How often is it that someone prangs one in because he screwed up the flare because he was way too high and then pushes over the nose to "get it down" --- or runs off the end of the runway because he comes in too high/hot --- or almost takes out the boundary fence because he equates being low/flat with a greaser.
Sorry guys. Go stand at the end of the runway some Saturday and look at the show. Very entertaining --- but don't take your children. No --- I'll continue to risk life and limb and fly a 3 degree stable approach from 1.5 miles. And no lectures about long finals please. My 600 carrier landings averaged an 8 second wings level final. I know what a tight pattern is.
How often is it that engines suddenly fail during the last 1.5 minutes of the approach? 1 in a million? Perhaps.
How often is it that someone prangs one in because he screwed up the flare because he was way too high and then pushes over the nose to "get it down" --- or runs off the end of the runway because he comes in too high/hot --- or almost takes out the boundary fence because he equates being low/flat with a greaser.
Sorry guys. Go stand at the end of the runway some Saturday and look at the show. Very entertaining --- but don't take your children. No --- I'll continue to risk life and limb and fly a 3 degree stable approach from 1.5 miles. And no lectures about long finals please. My 600 carrier landings averaged an 8 second wings level final. I know what a tight pattern is.
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Careful - you are now using conjecture rather than real statistics to back up your arguments. If engine failures on final are indeed 1 in a million then I should have been a Lottery winner by now.... I have either seen at first hand or heard from fellow pilots of this occurring at least 6 times over a 20 year period. It's happened to me once. Quite common in VW engined aircraft, A65s, C90s when despite carb heat they ice up.
The next statement is much more to do with pilots knowing how to hold their speeds and fly accurately down whatever angle glidepath they choose, so that they arrive at the correct landing point, at the correct speed & attitude, pointing in the correct direction, rounding out correctly & of course stopping in a straight line.
Saturday moprnings or indeed any other times are always entertaining at GA/light aircraft fields - people have to learn to fly you know, and they only learn by getting it wrong before they get it right (even when they are qualified).
Although I don't doubt your abilities, and have every respect & a high regard for your carrier experience, at least you had a hook to stop you!!!! (sorry, couldnt resist that). But even as a lowly PPL I can claim many more landings than that at a field with short runways close to a built up area.
Could I ask you something - would you adjust your rule if your home airfield's main runway approach was over a heavily built up area with no let out should your donk stop one day at 1.3 miles? One of our guys didnt. He was lucky when he landed on the sewage farm in nice new Cessna. He got out, but the plane was cut in two by the sewage sweeper rotor arm. His fuel guages showed quarter full of course so he knew his engine wouldnt stop.
Or would you be thinking about the traffic in front of and behind you (which may include anything from microlights to a fast twin) when you set yourself up on the base leg prior to turning finals? Lots of traffic, different speeds, a radio advisory service only and you have to start making lots of decisions to remain safe and considerate, not just sticking to what is best for yourself.
The next statement is much more to do with pilots knowing how to hold their speeds and fly accurately down whatever angle glidepath they choose, so that they arrive at the correct landing point, at the correct speed & attitude, pointing in the correct direction, rounding out correctly & of course stopping in a straight line.
Saturday moprnings or indeed any other times are always entertaining at GA/light aircraft fields - people have to learn to fly you know, and they only learn by getting it wrong before they get it right (even when they are qualified).
Although I don't doubt your abilities, and have every respect & a high regard for your carrier experience, at least you had a hook to stop you!!!! (sorry, couldnt resist that). But even as a lowly PPL I can claim many more landings than that at a field with short runways close to a built up area.
Could I ask you something - would you adjust your rule if your home airfield's main runway approach was over a heavily built up area with no let out should your donk stop one day at 1.3 miles? One of our guys didnt. He was lucky when he landed on the sewage farm in nice new Cessna. He got out, but the plane was cut in two by the sewage sweeper rotor arm. His fuel guages showed quarter full of course so he knew his engine wouldnt stop.
Or would you be thinking about the traffic in front of and behind you (which may include anything from microlights to a fast twin) when you set yourself up on the base leg prior to turning finals? Lots of traffic, different speeds, a radio advisory service only and you have to start making lots of decisions to remain safe and considerate, not just sticking to what is best for yourself.