Landings
Victim of Blackmailing Scouser
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Zürich, Switzerland (But a Brit)
Mr Richard49,
Nothing to fight about, my friend, just a slightly different perspective, that's all. At the end of the day, we're all right, huh?
Take care.
TW
Nothing to fight about, my friend, just a slightly different perspective, that's all. At the end of the day, we're all right, huh?
Take care.
TW
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
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From: New Zealand
Have a squizzy at this site. It may be of use. http://www.monmouth.com/~jsd/how/htm/landing.html
Kermie
Kermie
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Melbourne, Australia
Evo7,
There aren't many people that can grease them on everytime they land escpecially when they were starting out.
My first instructor would swap me from normal approaches to flappless to help me gain confidence that I could do it. Thats all it was, confidence.
Keep going, listen to the advice and practice, practice, practice.
There aren't many people that can grease them on everytime they land escpecially when they were starting out.
My first instructor would swap me from normal approaches to flappless to help me gain confidence that I could do it. Thats all it was, confidence.
Keep going, listen to the advice and practice, practice, practice.
Guest
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Richard 49
Full flaps do lead to a nose down approach attitude and do require greater pilot effort to flare, but this is good practice, especially for those wishing to transition to tail draggers at a later stage. (Of course, the manufacturer will provide advice on settings for cross winds, often recommending partial flap.)
Also every pilot should be current on going around, including the appropriate retraction of flaps to maximise climb performance.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Full flaps do lead to a nose down approach attitude and do require greater pilot effort to flare, but this is good practice, especially for those wishing to transition to tail draggers at a later stage. (Of course, the manufacturer will provide advice on settings for cross winds, often recommending partial flap.)
Also every pilot should be current on going around, including the appropriate retraction of flaps to maximise climb performance.
[ 15 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
Posts: 871
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From: Chichester, UK
Well, back in the air again this afternoon. I'd like to be able to say that all your advice worked and I pulled off a wonder landing, but it went something like this.
Call finals. Birds singing, sun shining.
500 feet: All great. PPRuNe thread runs through my head. Sorted. Gonna be great.
200 feet: Um, am I coming in a bit low?
150 feet: F**k, I am coming in too low!
100 feet: Add power. That'll fix it.
75 feet: Bugger, might have been too much power.
a bit later, still 75 feet: Bugger, Bugger, Bugger.
even later, still 75 feet: Bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger.
Instructor: I have control.
So I didn't even get to screw up the flare this time....
Oh well. Personally, I blame the pilot. Or something. Thanks one and all for your advice. Very much appreciated. Remember to check back here early next year when I finally get it....
Call finals. Birds singing, sun shining.
500 feet: All great. PPRuNe thread runs through my head. Sorted. Gonna be great.
200 feet: Um, am I coming in a bit low?
150 feet: F**k, I am coming in too low!
100 feet: Add power. That'll fix it.
75 feet: Bugger, might have been too much power.
a bit later, still 75 feet: Bugger, Bugger, Bugger.
even later, still 75 feet: Bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger, bugger.
Instructor: I have control.
So I didn't even get to screw up the flare this time....
Oh well. Personally, I blame the pilot. Or something. Thanks one and all for your advice. Very much appreciated. Remember to check back here early next year when I finally get it....
Supercharged PPRuNer
Joined: Nov 2000
Aviation Qualifications: ATPL
Posts: 1,188
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From: Doon the watter, a million miles from the sandpit.
Been there Evo7, been there. Great big runway rushing up at you and you're thinking 'ohmygawd we're gonna hit it, pull up pull up, etc'. Trouble is, landings generally require contact with the runway. 
If you're anything like me, your flaring will gradually get more accurate as experience starts to override the instinct of a brain that wasn't born to fly. Just keep at it, try to relax as much as possible, and the knack will come sooner than you think - trust me.
I
If you're anything like me, your flaring will gradually get more accurate as experience starts to override the instinct of a brain that wasn't born to fly. Just keep at it, try to relax as much as possible, and the knack will come sooner than you think - trust me.
I
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Evo
Try working this through....
If you are descending on a stabilised 3 degree glideslope, you need to divide your groundspeed by half and then multiply by 10 to calculate the required rate of descent.
So if you are coming in at 60kts (70kias less 10 kt headwind component), you need to to maintain 60/2x10=300fpm rate of descent all the way down final approach. At 60kts, you are also descending 300 feet per nautical mile. (300 divided by groundspeed multiplied by 60)
If you are using a two mile final, you need to be at 600 feet when you start, or 900 feet if you use a 3 mile final.
Flying a light aircraft is very much a matter of feel, so you don't need to nail the numbers above exactly (as would be the case on an airliner), but if you get yourself "in the slot" at the right height and distance, set the attitude and power for a 300 feet per nautical mile rate of descent with the required airspeed, then "tweak" the settings gently as required to maintain the picture, you should find it easier to maintain a steady profile down final.
I am not an intructor, so you will need to talk this through with yours, but a kindly airline capt taught me this approach and it works very well for me.
Of course it wont't help you flare, but you will arrive at the flare in a calm and orderly manner.
Keep it up mate, I remember going through this hell myself and a couple of years on couldn't understand what the fuss was all about!
F3G
[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Try working this through....
If you are descending on a stabilised 3 degree glideslope, you need to divide your groundspeed by half and then multiply by 10 to calculate the required rate of descent.
So if you are coming in at 60kts (70kias less 10 kt headwind component), you need to to maintain 60/2x10=300fpm rate of descent all the way down final approach. At 60kts, you are also descending 300 feet per nautical mile. (300 divided by groundspeed multiplied by 60)
If you are using a two mile final, you need to be at 600 feet when you start, or 900 feet if you use a 3 mile final.
Flying a light aircraft is very much a matter of feel, so you don't need to nail the numbers above exactly (as would be the case on an airliner), but if you get yourself "in the slot" at the right height and distance, set the attitude and power for a 300 feet per nautical mile rate of descent with the required airspeed, then "tweak" the settings gently as required to maintain the picture, you should find it easier to maintain a steady profile down final.
I am not an intructor, so you will need to talk this through with yours, but a kindly airline capt taught me this approach and it works very well for me.
Of course it wont't help you flare, but you will arrive at the flare in a calm and orderly manner.
Keep it up mate, I remember going through this hell myself and a couple of years on couldn't understand what the fuss was all about!
F3G[ 16 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Don`t like this idea of a 3 degree approach. Thats fine for airliners but Russian Roulette for SEPs. It gives me the willies watching the a/c at Kidlington. If the Donk stops anywhere on their circuit they are in a field if they are lucky and in the woods if they`re not. Once on your downwind leg you should be within gliding range of the field.
On the subject of landing, or probably flareing:- you do not change from a controlled, fairly steep approach to a flare in an instant, it is a smooth, controlled transition. So many people seem to try to make the change too quickly so they either do it too high and then have to put the nose down again, or they leave it too late whereupon they balloon back up into the air after a frantic heave to avoid a collision with the ground. I learned to fly as a Glider Pilot and only recently converted to power (SLMG), maybe its different.
Regards
Mike W.
On the subject of landing, or probably flareing:- you do not change from a controlled, fairly steep approach to a flare in an instant, it is a smooth, controlled transition. So many people seem to try to make the change too quickly so they either do it too high and then have to put the nose down again, or they leave it too late whereupon they balloon back up into the air after a frantic heave to avoid a collision with the ground. I learned to fly as a Glider Pilot and only recently converted to power (SLMG), maybe its different.
Regards
Mike W.
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
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From: New Zealand
It does all seem rather weird to use such an exact '3 degree' glideslope, and I have never taught this to ANY of my students. My advice: take your eyes off the approach aids and learn to fly using the runway perspective and the threshold as references. What are you going to do later on when you can't judge your glideslope on a short grass field in the middle of nowhere, because there were no approach lighting aids available? Please, fly practically.
Kermie
Kermie
Thread Starter
Joined: Apr 2001
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From: Chichester, UK
Goodwood is a short(ish) grass strip in the middle of nowhere with no landing aids, so I have to use Mark 1 eyeball.
Trying again tomorrow, so busy thinking things through. Gonna be great
Can land perfectly on FS2k, too.
I'm starting to doubt that it has anything to do with flying...
[ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
Trying again tomorrow, so busy thinking things through. Gonna be great
Can land perfectly on FS2k, too.
I'm starting to doubt that it has anything to do with flying... [ 17 August 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 52
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From: Henley-on-Thames, UK
Don't worry about the landings too much, like someone said, one day it all just clicks and you find you can do them; this happened to me and that was in gliders where you only get one chance to get it right per flight... no go-around without an engine!
Glider circuits and landings are a bit different to powered things, but may be of some help. Circuits and landings are done without reference to the altimeter, instead we use a reference point method. From your high key point pick where you're going to land, and look at it throughout the circuit. If you have it about at 30 degrees underneath you, you can judge if you're too close it, too high, low, whatever.
Once you've turned onto finals, try and keep the reference point in the same relative position on the canopy. This means you can see if you're under- or over-shooting.
When you begin to think you're going to bury the aircraft some way under ground, shift your focus from your reference/ aiming point to the horizon. By doing this, you find you can judge very small changes in height, and it's alot easier to gradually keep easing back on the stick until the aircraft is flying a foot or so off the deck. If you keep easing back, you will eventually kiss it onto the ground, and be completely stalled. No chance of leaping back into the air (two landings for the price of one!).
Works well in gliders, and good for taildraggers it seems. Hope that helps
Yp
Glider circuits and landings are a bit different to powered things, but may be of some help. Circuits and landings are done without reference to the altimeter, instead we use a reference point method. From your high key point pick where you're going to land, and look at it throughout the circuit. If you have it about at 30 degrees underneath you, you can judge if you're too close it, too high, low, whatever.
Once you've turned onto finals, try and keep the reference point in the same relative position on the canopy. This means you can see if you're under- or over-shooting.
When you begin to think you're going to bury the aircraft some way under ground, shift your focus from your reference/ aiming point to the horizon. By doing this, you find you can judge very small changes in height, and it's alot easier to gradually keep easing back on the stick until the aircraft is flying a foot or so off the deck. If you keep easing back, you will eventually kiss it onto the ground, and be completely stalled. No chance of leaping back into the air (two landings for the price of one!).
Works well in gliders, and good for taildraggers it seems. Hope that helps
Yp
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Skylark, Kermie
Agree on g/s angle - I use 5-6 degrees personally, but what Evo is describing sounds like an unstabilised approach and it is unsettling him. Also, as I said, flying a SEP is about feel and you don't need to nail the numbers, they are there to guide you.
IMHO he needs to find a rough rate of descent that gets him "in the slot" and allows him to be relaxed for the flare.
To nail 6 degrees, simply add a zero to groundspeed - e.g. 600-650fpm for a Warrior, but my gut feel is that is a bit on the steep side for a student and there is a danger of the a/c "running away" unless this is a well managed glide approach.
However, I know that you a re an instructor Kermie (don't know about you Skylark) so perhpas I ought to bug out now and leave to people with more knowledge and experience.
I just feel for Evo, especially as I struggled with landings too..
Agree on g/s angle - I use 5-6 degrees personally, but what Evo is describing sounds like an unstabilised approach and it is unsettling him. Also, as I said, flying a SEP is about feel and you don't need to nail the numbers, they are there to guide you.
IMHO he needs to find a rough rate of descent that gets him "in the slot" and allows him to be relaxed for the flare.
To nail 6 degrees, simply add a zero to groundspeed - e.g. 600-650fpm for a Warrior, but my gut feel is that is a bit on the steep side for a student and there is a danger of the a/c "running away" unless this is a well managed glide approach.
However, I know that you a re an instructor Kermie (don't know about you Skylark) so perhpas I ought to bug out now and leave to people with more knowledge and experience.
I just feel for Evo, especially as I struggled with landings too..
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 339
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
I really cannot understand the reliance on mathematical calculations and geometry. There will be a circuit height which you should attain by downwind leg and a circuit speed or suitable speed for your particular aircraft. At some point on the approach the descent starts and from then on the only dial you should be interested in is the ASI. Everything else is Mk 1 Eyeball. I know that this is a simplistic version but who needs instruments to fly a basic trainer? The aircraft will tell you if the speed is right and the positioning is up to you.
I am not an instructor, I used to be an Assistant Category Gliding Instructor back in the `60`s but no longer.
To the guy who first posed the question:- Don`t worry, (be happy), we all have some bit of learning to fly which gives us a problem, In my case it was controlling the direction of the glider during the roll after landing. As many people have said, it will click one day. There`s no hurry, the guy in the other seat will be there for a fair while yet. If you REALLY have a problem, lessons every day for a few days will probably sort it out but don`t try too much each day. The mind seems to need to absorb and sort out the new information during sleep.
Regards,
Mike W.
I am not an instructor, I used to be an Assistant Category Gliding Instructor back in the `60`s but no longer.
To the guy who first posed the question:- Don`t worry, (be happy), we all have some bit of learning to fly which gives us a problem, In my case it was controlling the direction of the glider during the roll after landing. As many people have said, it will click one day. There`s no hurry, the guy in the other seat will be there for a fair while yet. If you REALLY have a problem, lessons every day for a few days will probably sort it out but don`t try too much each day. The mind seems to need to absorb and sort out the new information during sleep.
Regards,
Mike W.
Safety First!
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 516
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From: New Zealand
I have no intention of forcing my opinions on anybody here F3G. I just offered an alternative suggestion that will allow for safe flying and based on my own experiences. As Im asure you did too. Guaranteed, just because I instruct, doesnt mean I know everything, in fact I learn a lot from students all the time. So all suggestions are valid, good to see we can all take the time to help our friend Evo out.
Kermie
Kermie
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Kermie
Agree totally with your sentiment and I just hope that Evo7 does not get too dismayed, as we've all been through what he's feeling now.
Skylark
I'd just say that all aeroplanes obey the laws of energy and geometry and leave it at that. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Agree totally with your sentiment and I just hope that Evo7 does not get too dismayed, as we've all been through what he's feeling now.
Skylark
I'd just say that all aeroplanes obey the laws of energy and geometry and leave it at that. You are perfectly entitled to your opinion.
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
F3G
Yes , of course all a/c obey the various rules of engineering, motion, mathematics and feng shui for all I know. So does a motor car and you don`t need rate of turn indicators or pretty coloured lights to turn a corner without hitting the kerb.
Mike W.
Yes , of course all a/c obey the various rules of engineering, motion, mathematics and feng shui for all I know. So does a motor car and you don`t need rate of turn indicators or pretty coloured lights to turn a corner without hitting the kerb.
Mike W.
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Skylark
The point you make is very powerful because one can see the kerb in a car at close distance and therefore understand one's position relative to it, allowing appropriate action to be taken easily.
Visualising a descent profile in one's mind facilitates the same action - I wouldn't suggest that anyone should try to drive a light aircraft down final like an airliner where half a degree of attitude pitch is critical to performance, but having a mind map of the approximate altitude "gates" (e.g. turning from base, 1, 2 miles out) has always been helpful to me.
This is rule of thumb stuff,not science.
As the instructors say pitch and power equals performance.
If you know where you should be on the profile and then set the required pitch (via the ASI, I agree, in a light single)and the power setting for the rate of descent rewquired, then it helps to stabilise the approach.
The primary focus can be on the visual cues such as the shape of the runway and the position of the numbers on the windscreen etc.
I don't know how many hours you have - I'm not trying to start a competition- but I have going on for three hundred and probably both you and I have enough experience to interpret the cues and fly off the ASI only once in the circuit.
However, I still find a "sense" check from time to time to be reassuring and if I fly an unfamiliar type of aircraft, understanding the "triangle" of final is very good in the early period where flying becomes less intuitive for a while.
Anyway, some of the planes I have flown certainly could have benefitted from some Feng Shui, but didn't appear to follow those rules!
Happy Landings
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
The point you make is very powerful because one can see the kerb in a car at close distance and therefore understand one's position relative to it, allowing appropriate action to be taken easily.
Visualising a descent profile in one's mind facilitates the same action - I wouldn't suggest that anyone should try to drive a light aircraft down final like an airliner where half a degree of attitude pitch is critical to performance, but having a mind map of the approximate altitude "gates" (e.g. turning from base, 1, 2 miles out) has always been helpful to me.
This is rule of thumb stuff,not science.
As the instructors say pitch and power equals performance.
If you know where you should be on the profile and then set the required pitch (via the ASI, I agree, in a light single)and the power setting for the rate of descent rewquired, then it helps to stabilise the approach.
The primary focus can be on the visual cues such as the shape of the runway and the position of the numbers on the windscreen etc.
I don't know how many hours you have - I'm not trying to start a competition
- but I have going on for three hundred and probably both you and I have enough experience to interpret the cues and fly off the ASI only once in the circuit. However, I still find a "sense" check from time to time to be reassuring and if I fly an unfamiliar type of aircraft, understanding the "triangle" of final is very good in the early period where flying becomes less intuitive for a while.
Anyway, some of the planes I have flown certainly could have benefitted from some Feng Shui, but didn't appear to follow those rules!
Happy Landings
[ 19 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Dublin, Ireland
In reply to Final 3 Greens and the use of full flaps and their use in a Tail dragger, I'm just about to find out about that as I'm off to do my basic AOPA aerobatics in a PIITS, I just have one problem though, someone has told me they don't have flaps!! -is that true?
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
F3G
"Two miles out" I thought we were talking circuit flying, not cross country navigation.
Richard.
I have it on good authority,( someone gave us a talk at a PFA Strut meeting), that the approach is carried out in a slipping turn for the same reason that the Spitfire used the same tequnique, a straight in approach gives you a grand view of the engine cowlings right where you hope the runway is. Flaps are not really needed.
Mike W
"Two miles out" I thought we were talking circuit flying, not cross country navigation.
Richard.
I have it on good authority,( someone gave us a talk at a PFA Strut meeting), that the approach is carried out in a slipping turn for the same reason that the Spitfire used the same tequnique, a straight in approach gives you a grand view of the engine cowlings right where you hope the runway is. Flaps are not really needed.
Mike W