John & Martha King - false arrest

[Katamarino]

SNS - I'm usually the USA's biggest fan, but to be fair, the violent crime figures between UK and USA speak for themselves. The UK police can be pretty terrible at times; as can the US police; but not carrying guns does not seem to me to be an issue at all, day-to-day. If you want to take the piss about something that's actually an issue, perhaps you could try using the levels of paperwork they have to do.

[BackPacker]

Ah, yes...the UK, where law enforcement consists of yelling "Halt, or I shall yell 'Halt!' again!"

It's funny to see you make a mockery out of this, but the fundamental issue is very sound. In Europe, the police has a monopoly on violence. The general public is not allowed to posess/carry firearms, as a general rule. Thus, there is no arms race between the police and the general public. And because of this, police officers are basically only allowed to use their firearms in self-defence. (*)

So if a police officer even draws his weapon to help enforce his authority during an arrest, without the police officer being threatened by the suspect in any way, he/she is subject to an investigation and might be reprimanded or even lose his/her job. He/she doesn't even have to fire a bullet for that. Just threatening someone with the use of a deadly weapon is already seen as excessive violence in a lot of situations.

So to make an arrest, police have to use less threatening means. Indeed, their voice, or by physically overpowering the suspect. Or any other means of violence that's proportional to the situation. But the police is taught that it's far better to defuse the situation somehow, than to increase the tension by using uncalled-for violence.

And you know what? It works. And it makes society here generally a better and more friendly place to live in. John & Martha would never have been arrested at gunpoint here, even if the police officers would not have an SOP for stopping a (stopped) light aircraft.

(*) Obviously there are exceptions. If an arrest of a hardened criminal, thought to have firearms, needs to be done, then the arrest team will blaze in with guns drawn.

[Justiciar]

I'm not a bit surprised. You whine about the use of the firearm in the US. While the Brits have emasculated themselves by locking up firearms, and the police sit relatively powerless (albeit gradually having come to the conclusion that yelling "halt" simply doesn't cut it any more, and a firearm is indeed a valuable law enforcement tool). Hence the old, but valid joke about UK law enforcement that rather than yelling "Halt, or I shall shoot," the Bobby need only shout out "Halt! Or I shall yell 'Halt" again!"

I am not quite sure where your rather twisted view of the British police comes from. I was a criminal defence solicitor (that's attorney to you guys) and my experience is that the police here are anything but powerless, as many of my clients discovered. As has already been said, there are many more ways of dealing with a situation that gormlessly pulling a gun.

Am I "whine(ing)" about use of firearms. Yes! You may think the levels of violent crime with firearms and accidental deaths involving firearms in the US are acceptable but I can tell you that they would not be tolerated for a second in Europe, so yes we would indeed whine. In the UK, where police are not routinely armed, the number of deaths using firearms as a weapon is small, though has risen in recent years and my own view is that the law has gone too far in the outright banning of handguns (other forms of firearm are not banned, but they are subject to stringent licensing and do have to be kept secure). Armed police are especially trained on the not unreasonable basis that using a firearm is a special skill for which not every moron in a uniform is suited for. Again, I don't have a problem with that either. You may be quite happy that people with an IQ barely in double figures can carry a gun as part of his work; I am not and neither would most people this side of the pond.

[smittysrv]

Video: FAA resolves Kings issue

Listen to what John King has to say about the whole "held at gunpoint" thing.

Video: FAA resolves Kings issue

[SNS3Guppy]

You may be quite happy that people with an IQ barely in double figures can carry a gun as part of his work; I am not and neither would most people this side of the pond.

That may be your problem. In the US, we tend to hire capable police, and you may be confused by a local, inferior product.

Listen to what John King has to say about the whole "held at gunpoint" thing.

The Kings are idiots. Martha could use a good tazering.

As far as gun control goes, it's never been shown to work. One should be highly suspicious of a government that takes away one's weapons. Hitler did that. Many despots and dictators have done that. The brits don't particularly like their citizenry to have firearms because the subjects don't necessarily remain subject any more. It was thanks to private firearms ownership, in fact, that the US became a nation, rather than subject colonies of the crown.

When citizens were required to turn in their weapons in Australia not long ago, violent crime rose substantially. Take away the weapons, and the criminals who were never following the law, still retain theirs. Taking away weapons disarms the good guys. In the case of Australia (were I used to live), robbery increased 44%, and the homicide rate in Victoria alone increased 300 percent. Go figure.

In the US, firearms are used 2.5 million times a year in self defense. Firearms are used 80 times more often to protect innocent lives, than to take them. The issuance of concealed carry permits has been proven in all cases to reduce crime rates substantially, and in every case where gun control is instituted, in the US or abroad, crime increases. Take away firearms from law abiding citizens, then the people who are not law abiding will have firearms.

For those whining about firearms in the US, you should know that twice as many children die from playing football, as from firearms, each year. In the 1990's, the number of firearms increased in the US by 40 million, yet the murder rate decreased by 40%.

But I'm telling this to the folks that freed the Lockerbie bomber. Excellent work.

[RatherBeFlying]

I'd file a lawsuit

against the SB police chief, the officers involved, EPIC and the FAA for $10 million.

There's no better way to get an arrogant law enforcement to shape up their procedures than getting hit with a big fat judgement -- well, likely a settlement. I see punitive damages against EPIC for screwing up twice in a few months with the same airplane

In fact there was one CA municipality that dumped its police force and contracted with another one because they got tired of paying out on expensive police misconduct lawsuits.

Remember that this is California where Jaycee Dugard and her children got $20 million because the CA parole officers got one slipped past them by a wily perv who knew how to fly under the radar.

[SNS3Guppy]

Misconduct? Perhaps you should look up that word, and how it applies in this case.

There was no misconduct, and the police actions were conducted professionally and properly.

You could sue, but you'd lose.

[youngskywalker]

Guppy, for a man who claims to have flown everything from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle you do seem to have a hell of a lot of free time to spout utter rubbish on PPRuNe!

And before you qoute me saying 'At no stage have I ever claimed to fly either the Wright Flyer or the Space Shuttle....' I was being sarcastic, and not without good reason, a trait lost on most Americans.

[RatherBeFlying]

Pointing guns at innocent civilians is misconduct in my book.

In Canada simply pointing a firearm at a person without lawful excuse is a criminal offense.

[Intercepted]

Guppy, for a man who claims to have flown everything from the Wright Flyer to the Space Shuttle you do seem to have a hell of a lot of free time to spout utter rubbish on PPRuNe!

I'm only flying 100 hours a year, mostly PA28s and I work in an office, mostly between 9 and 5.

There is no way I could possibly find all the time that SNS3Guppy seems to have to write long stories about avoiding small arms fire in numerous of different aircraft types, flight testing, working as an instructor, beeing a captain not allowing his FO to fly because he is crap etc.

SNS3Guppy, is there something you are not telling us?

Where and when do you find all the time to write your long stories on PPrune and other forums?

Are you using a satellite phone to connect to Internet when you are on a mission?



As these are anonymous forums the origins of the contributions may be opposite to what may be apparent. In fact the press may use it, or the unscrupulous, or sciolists*, to elicit certain reactions.

*"sciolist"... Noun, archaic. "a person who pretends to be knowledgeable and well informed".

[GetShorty]

While the Brits have emasculated themselves by locking up firearms

Seriously?

Oh wait, yes. I feel much less masculine for not carrying a six-shooter in my belt. I wouldn't mind one of those snazzy Stetson hats and a set of spurs too.

I think most normally adjusted people would at least recognise this as an over-reaction on the part of the police, even though I think it's fairly easy to accept that they were acting on information erroneously provided by another agency.

The aircraft was following a flightplan for heaven's sake, not something likely to occur if the occupants had nefarious intent. Drawn guns just weren't necessary.

Sometimes common sense has to be applied even when the letter of the law doesn't demand it.

I'd say the Kings have responded with incredible dignity and restraint under the circumstances. Good for them

[airborne_artist]

But I'm telling this to the folks that freed the Lockerbie bomber. Excellent work.

The Lockerbie bomber was released by the Scottish Government, not the UK Government. I for one did not even have the opportunity to vote for any Scottish administration, living in England as I do.

67 police officers have been killed by firearms on mainland UK since 1900 - the equivalent fugure for the US is 7,000 - one hundred times as many for a population of about six times as great.

[SNS3Guppy]

And before you qoute me saying 'At no stage have I ever claimed to fly either the Wright Flyer or the Space Shuttle....' I was being sarcastic, and not without good reason, a trait lost on most Americans.

Ah, sarcasm. With a stiff upper lip, that's how you pronounce a lie.

Got it.

I think most normally adjusted people would at least recognise this as an over-reaction on the part of the police, even though I think it's fairly easy to accept that they were acting on information erroneously provided by another agency.

Most people in such a sheltered world, perhaps, that the mere wearing of a tee shirt with a picture of a knife on it can get one arrested. But not people in a free society where not only the police, but the citizenry are allowed to own firearms.

I'm only flying 100 hours a year, mostly PA28s and I work in an office, mostly between 9 and 5.

I fly between five and eight hundred hours a year on the average, do not work in an office, and operate (and live) internationally. Perhaps you should learn to manage your time better.

--As far as gun control in the UK goes, bearing in mind that the UK is roughly the size of a large postage stamp, we can pick a time period in the not too distant past...say 1997 to 2003 (the first five years of the UK gun ban), and find that firearm crimes doubled. In the last year of that period, firearms crimes rose overall in the UK by 35% (with a 46% increase in the use of 'banned' handguns, incidentally). This is in a society where ownership and carriage is practically prohibited, and where even "deactivated" firearms are banned. During that time, up to ten thousand firearm crimes were committed in the UK...a year. As of a 2004 report, the year 2002 had peaked with the highest number of murders in the UK in the last 100 years.

Gun crime doubled in the UK within the first five years after Labour took over.

It seems that gun control is really working for you. You're hardly in a position to preach to the US about how to control or use firearms.

In fact, a UN study published in 2002 noted that England and Wales topped the charts for crime, whereas the crime stats in the US continued to fall.

While you sit and cower in the UK and imagine all sorts of wild mythological stories about the USA being the wild west, don't forget to take stock and look in the mirror. Your gun ban isn't working for you. Everywhere in the US that weapons laws are more liberal, where concealed carry is permitted or open carry authorized, and where handgun and firearms ownership is allowed or encouraged, crime rates drop. Where gun control is enacted, crime increases, as one would naturally expect (take away lawful firearms and only the criminals are left with the guns).

While you prattle on and whine about police actions in the USA, which work, take great comfort in the unarmed police officer who can't come to your aid because he isn't equipped.

The police who handled the Kings used lawful firearms as preventative tools. These were not discharged. One may rest assured, however, that if one of those officers ordered someone to halt or be shot, then the officer can and would shoot. In the UK, the offer would be left to flap his lips in the wind. The Santa Barbara police responded in an orderly manner, executed a proper felony stop, secured the Kings and their aircraft until a determination could be made on their status, then released them unharmed. They were neither abused nor mistreated.

If you find the ownership, carriage, and use of weapons in the US to be such an offense, perhaps you would do best to stay on the postage stamp and forgo forrays to a place where one actually has room to fly, places to visit, far less restrictions, far more freedoms, lower prices, and the safety of an armed society. As one author noted "an armed society is a polite society," meaning that one tends to consider one's impending offense perhaps a bit more carefully if the penalty may result in one getting shot.

[Saab Dastard]

Time, gentlemen, please.

This thread is now fit for jet blast (sorry JB), so it's closed.

Feel free to debate the right to bear arms and US v. UK or EU elsewhere.

SD