AOPA Aerobatics Course
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C152 Aerobat!!!!! ARRRRRGHHHHHHHH!!!!!
NO! you cant do aerobatics in that! its just not right!!! It doesnt even have a stick! I heard the roll rate was pretty poor too. Aerobatics without a stick is just wrong!
Also you arent sitting in the centre which is another bad point. Its just not a proper plane for aerobatics!!!! Even if you cant afford a pitts or extra it doesnt mean you have to resort to a cessna!
A chipmunk would be good, and not too expensive, if you can find one. A yak seems good too, but is a bit more costly.
You could even do it in a Moth at White Waltham or Cambridge or maybe somewhere else although its performance isnt that great. Anything but a cessna! It just wouldnt give you the right expierience!
NO! you cant do aerobatics in that! its just not right!!! It doesnt even have a stick! I heard the roll rate was pretty poor too. Aerobatics without a stick is just wrong!
Also you arent sitting in the centre which is another bad point. Its just not a proper plane for aerobatics!!!! Even if you cant afford a pitts or extra it doesnt mean you have to resort to a cessna!
A chipmunk would be good, and not too expensive, if you can find one. A yak seems good too, but is a bit more costly.
You could even do it in a Moth at White Waltham or Cambridge or maybe somewhere else although its performance isnt that great. Anything but a cessna! It just wouldnt give you the right expierience!
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Went to my Aero-club this morning, and previously unknown to me, there is an Flying Group/School with CAP-10s visiting us at my Club for three weeks at the end of July!! I'll try to wait until then, it will give me a little time to save some pennies. In addition, two places about 45mins/hour away have a CAP-10 too.
So, it looks like my first Aeros will be in a CAP-10!!
While this thread is alive, If anyone Experienced with CAP-10s would like to add any further tips I might find usefull I'd appreciate it immensely.
Thanks to all in advance, SD.
So, it looks like my first Aeros will be in a CAP-10!!
While this thread is alive, If anyone Experienced with CAP-10s would like to add any further tips I might find usefull I'd appreciate it immensely.
Thanks to all in advance, SD.
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Everyone stay cool! - I just chose the cessna as a point of reference. I have done aeros in one and am still alive to tell the tale! My point was simply that I would like to learn the hard way. I feel that learning on a pitts is likely to conceal early mistakes etc. Am going to try simon coombes at oxford on the slingsby
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Cap 10B
I have done a few hours with one in France with a superb instructor.
Initially I found myself coming down the backside of the loop and constantly having to correct hdg. Then ...... it dawned, the stick was very slightly offset to the centreline of the seat, so pulling back to your navel (a la Pitts) also applied a tadge of aileron.
Once I had reset my datum, I loved it!
Actually as a serious 2 seat aeroplane that will go places (130kt cruise IIRC)and one that 2 up you can whang about the sky in, it'd be hard to beat.
Stik
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ruda
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sickbag
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go and do it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have done a few hours with one in France with a superb instructor.
Initially I found myself coming down the backside of the loop and constantly having to correct hdg. Then ...... it dawned, the stick was very slightly offset to the centreline of the seat, so pulling back to your navel (a la Pitts) also applied a tadge of aileron.
Once I had reset my datum, I loved it!
Actually as a serious 2 seat aeroplane that will go places (130kt cruise IIRC)and one that 2 up you can whang about the sky in, it'd be hard to beat.
Stik
n
ruda
n
sickbag
n
go and do it again!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Hiya folks,
Sorry to stray off the point but I am a little curious as to how good/bad aircraft like Pitts are for touring.
I know that if you wanted a tourer you wouldn't go buy a pitts but are they exceptionally bad fuel wise, if so does the increased airspeed make up for this, what are they like on grass strips and do they operate well with 2 p.o.b and a bit of luggage etc?
Thanks, SNR, me thinks you may be able to answer this one.
Rusty
Sorry to stray off the point but I am a little curious as to how good/bad aircraft like Pitts are for touring.
I know that if you wanted a tourer you wouldn't go buy a pitts but are they exceptionally bad fuel wise, if so does the increased airspeed make up for this, what are they like on grass strips and do they operate well with 2 p.o.b and a bit of luggage etc?
Thanks, SNR, me thinks you may be able to answer this one.
Rusty
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Rusty,
If you were serious about touring, then you wouldn't buy a Pitts!
But if you had a Pitts and wanted to tour - then sure it is totally feasible.
The downside with many aerobatic aircraft (Pitts, YAK, etc) is that they don't hold a lot of fuel. So - in either a single or 2 seat Pitts, two hrs between fuel stops is about the maximum.
They are not particularly quick at cruise settings (130-150mph).
They love grass strips (mine lives on 600yds and is normally down and stopped in less than half of that).
The cockpit on the S1 is more comfy than on the S2 - it is a bit larger, I always feel TOO close to the instrument panel in either the S2A or B, but I do wear a back 'chute.
They are great fun. Friends of mine annually take theirs from Jo'burg to Nairobi - which is a long, long way!
See them at www.aerobat.co.za
Have fun,
Stik
If you were serious about touring, then you wouldn't buy a Pitts!
But if you had a Pitts and wanted to tour - then sure it is totally feasible.
The downside with many aerobatic aircraft (Pitts, YAK, etc) is that they don't hold a lot of fuel. So - in either a single or 2 seat Pitts, two hrs between fuel stops is about the maximum.
They are not particularly quick at cruise settings (130-150mph).
They love grass strips (mine lives on 600yds and is normally down and stopped in less than half of that).
The cockpit on the S1 is more comfy than on the S2 - it is a bit larger, I always feel TOO close to the instrument panel in either the S2A or B, but I do wear a back 'chute.
They are great fun. Friends of mine annually take theirs from Jo'burg to Nairobi - which is a long, long way!
See them at www.aerobat.co.za
Have fun,
Stik
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Good topic on aeros,
I have spent many hours aerbating a C150 texas taildragger and whilst it loops and stallturns easy I just could never get a good roll out of it. Practice as much as I liked and used rudder to help get started and to finish the roll off it was hopeless. (or I was!) I found reverse half cubans loads of fun as well and could link a loop with a roll and then a reverse half cuban before losing too much height. Great fun! I did have the feeling that it was built strong +6 and -3 so that was a confidence booster. Actually broke a seat frame once that was a tad worrying.
Did a few flights in G-Wren a pitts S2A at sywell and that rolled beautifully. Always wanted a Pitts S1C but never could find one at the right price in the right condition.
I have now got a Bolkow 208c Junior capable of similar aeros to the C150. Again it loops and stall turns lovely but is slightly heavy on the ailerons but rolls nicer.
Does not give the feeling as being as strong as the C150 +4.4 and - 2.2 but outperforms one in every way.
Does not seem to be the same interest in the South East in aeros as in other parts of the country. My club has vey few people interested in this great past time. Makes a 40 min flight so much more fun than just stooging about and you feel like you have learn't something after every flight!
I have spent many hours aerbating a C150 texas taildragger and whilst it loops and stallturns easy I just could never get a good roll out of it. Practice as much as I liked and used rudder to help get started and to finish the roll off it was hopeless. (or I was!) I found reverse half cubans loads of fun as well and could link a loop with a roll and then a reverse half cuban before losing too much height. Great fun! I did have the feeling that it was built strong +6 and -3 so that was a confidence booster. Actually broke a seat frame once that was a tad worrying.
Did a few flights in G-Wren a pitts S2A at sywell and that rolled beautifully. Always wanted a Pitts S1C but never could find one at the right price in the right condition.
I have now got a Bolkow 208c Junior capable of similar aeros to the C150. Again it loops and stall turns lovely but is slightly heavy on the ailerons but rolls nicer.
Does not give the feeling as being as strong as the C150 +4.4 and - 2.2 but outperforms one in every way.
Does not seem to be the same interest in the South East in aeros as in other parts of the country. My club has vey few people interested in this great past time. Makes a 40 min flight so much more fun than just stooging about and you feel like you have learn't something after every flight!
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I certainly agree with mickypitch that 40 mins (or even 20 mins) with some aeros certainly beats the average stooge-about or circuit bash, and helps to makes each flight a learning experience.
Responding to some of the queries above about the Cap 10, one of the reasons that I've bought into a Cap group is that the aircraft is a very good combination trainer/tourer/aerobatter. The French air force was happy with it as the ab initio trainer for future Mirage jockeys. Its general handling is delightful. Lovely light controls, think about turning and it turns. It climbs very nicely and can cruise at a wide range of speeds according to how much fuel you want to burn. Visibility in all directions is superb, and looking out over an elliptical wing can produce a few enjoyable Walter Mitty/Billy Liar moments for obvious reasons.
On the ground the 3 point attitude is flatter than that of many tailwheelers and forward vis is good. The large fin and fuselage keel area aft of the CG can make it a bit of a handful to taxi in a brisk crosswind. You need to be very circumspect and use lots of ruddder and perhaps a bit of differential brake. Its likes to swing left on takeoff so you have to dance the dance on the pedals whilst raising the tail only slightly. As its so slippery and light, making it slow down and descend requires some thought. You have to get it really well sorted on base leg. I have found it easier to achieve reasonable 3 point landings in it than I did in a Cub, but it will have a go at you if your threshold speed is not bang on. Not scary, but characterful and pleasantly challenging compared to
a trike.
As a tourer, it's comfortable for two adults with a small bag on the rear shelf (max 50 kg depending on crew and fuel weight). The endurance is not great if you fly front tank only (the rear tank must be empty for arobatics), but it's quite a noisy cockpit so an hour and a half may be all you want, and you can fill up the rear, doubling the range, and fly on into France if you want to.
I'm still learning the aerobatic side so cannot offer expert commentary on how it compares with other aircraft. True it may be that side by side seating is not perfect for mega precision competition stuff, but it seems good for training and for general fun aeros. I must say that I hadn't noticed the offset on the stick as mentioned above. I must have a look next time I'm flying. Perhaps that's a bit like the offset pedals on some 1960s cars which you get used to after a few minutes.
My co-owner and instructor has demonstrated some pretty snappy manoeuvres on our dual sorties. The reserves of power available seem to make it go around and upside down with no great stress or effort.
Drawbacks? Needs a hangar to live in, costs quite a bit more than a Yak or Pitts to buy (but less to run (I think) than a Yak and possibly a Pitts also). Main drawback: makes you want to bunk off and go flying every waking hour of every single day.
Responding to some of the queries above about the Cap 10, one of the reasons that I've bought into a Cap group is that the aircraft is a very good combination trainer/tourer/aerobatter. The French air force was happy with it as the ab initio trainer for future Mirage jockeys. Its general handling is delightful. Lovely light controls, think about turning and it turns. It climbs very nicely and can cruise at a wide range of speeds according to how much fuel you want to burn. Visibility in all directions is superb, and looking out over an elliptical wing can produce a few enjoyable Walter Mitty/Billy Liar moments for obvious reasons.
On the ground the 3 point attitude is flatter than that of many tailwheelers and forward vis is good. The large fin and fuselage keel area aft of the CG can make it a bit of a handful to taxi in a brisk crosswind. You need to be very circumspect and use lots of ruddder and perhaps a bit of differential brake. Its likes to swing left on takeoff so you have to dance the dance on the pedals whilst raising the tail only slightly. As its so slippery and light, making it slow down and descend requires some thought. You have to get it really well sorted on base leg. I have found it easier to achieve reasonable 3 point landings in it than I did in a Cub, but it will have a go at you if your threshold speed is not bang on. Not scary, but characterful and pleasantly challenging compared to
a trike.
As a tourer, it's comfortable for two adults with a small bag on the rear shelf (max 50 kg depending on crew and fuel weight). The endurance is not great if you fly front tank only (the rear tank must be empty for arobatics), but it's quite a noisy cockpit so an hour and a half may be all you want, and you can fill up the rear, doubling the range, and fly on into France if you want to.
I'm still learning the aerobatic side so cannot offer expert commentary on how it compares with other aircraft. True it may be that side by side seating is not perfect for mega precision competition stuff, but it seems good for training and for general fun aeros. I must say that I hadn't noticed the offset on the stick as mentioned above. I must have a look next time I'm flying. Perhaps that's a bit like the offset pedals on some 1960s cars which you get used to after a few minutes.
My co-owner and instructor has demonstrated some pretty snappy manoeuvres on our dual sorties. The reserves of power available seem to make it go around and upside down with no great stress or effort.
Drawbacks? Needs a hangar to live in, costs quite a bit more than a Yak or Pitts to buy (but less to run (I think) than a Yak and possibly a Pitts also). Main drawback: makes you want to bunk off and go flying every waking hour of every single day.
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Thanks for all the tips FNG, interesting stuff, much appreciated.
Say, Stiknruda, if you dont mind me asking, where in France did you try out the CAP-10? Its just that I happen to be currently based in the Bordeaux region of France at the moment. Im not sure where the group visiting my Aero-club are from though, just that they are from somewhere near Paris.
Cheers, SD
Say, Stiknruda, if you dont mind me asking, where in France did you try out the CAP-10? Its just that I happen to be currently based in the Bordeaux region of France at the moment. Im not sure where the group visiting my Aero-club are from though, just that they are from somewhere near Paris.
Cheers, SD
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Can heartily recommend L'Aeroclube de Caen/Carpiquet for excellent aeros training in a decent CAP10B. My instructor was Patrick Gigot (understand that he coached Diana Britten for quite a while). Lessons were conducted in Franglais.
In fact it was he who pointed out the offset stick as the reason my loops were canted.
The CAP is not the same as a Pitts S1S (Dhoh!!) but it is a pleasure to fly and a lot easier to land. Both have the same IO360 up front pushing out 180hp.
Stik
In fact it was he who pointed out the offset stick as the reason my loops were canted.
The CAP is not the same as a Pitts S1S (Dhoh!!) but it is a pleasure to fly and a lot easier to land. Both have the same IO360 up front pushing out 180hp.
Stik
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Right Stuff
Since the Fuji got a mention I had to add a comment. There are essentially two versions the 180VP and the 160. The 160 maybe a more than a little underpowered but the 180 is not too bad. As a side by side non stick mount, that is pleasant to tour with up to four up, potentially fully IFR, with just two it makes a reasonable attempt also at aerobatics. Obviously not in the same league as an Extras, Pitts or Cap, but sort of sensible on costs, with a few good groups around and occasionally available on the market. Just a thought.
Since the Fuji got a mention I had to add a comment. There are essentially two versions the 180VP and the 160. The 160 maybe a more than a little underpowered but the 180 is not too bad. As a side by side non stick mount, that is pleasant to tour with up to four up, potentially fully IFR, with just two it makes a reasonable attempt also at aerobatics. Obviously not in the same league as an Extras, Pitts or Cap, but sort of sensible on costs, with a few good groups around and occasionally available on the market. Just a thought.
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Rusty
Since the Yak 50 is a single seater, there isn't anywhere you can get trained for it specifically.
However, as someone who first soloed a 50 earlier this year, here is how I did it. 125 hours on the Yak 52, then 5 hours on a Supercub, then fly the 52 from the rear seat for an hour or so (the position of the rear seat is almost the same as the 50 as is the landing attitude is you land the 52 properly), then jump into the 50. Huge fun - without doubt the best aeroplane I have ever flown.
An even better route would still involve plenty of Yak 52 time (including rear seat time), then tailwheel time on a Chipmunk, before getting into the Yak 50, since the Chippie is apparently similar many respects to the 50 handling wise.
Just do it.
Since the Yak 50 is a single seater, there isn't anywhere you can get trained for it specifically.
However, as someone who first soloed a 50 earlier this year, here is how I did it. 125 hours on the Yak 52, then 5 hours on a Supercub, then fly the 52 from the rear seat for an hour or so (the position of the rear seat is almost the same as the 50 as is the landing attitude is you land the 52 properly), then jump into the 50. Huge fun - without doubt the best aeroplane I have ever flown.
An even better route would still involve plenty of Yak 52 time (including rear seat time), then tailwheel time on a Chipmunk, before getting into the Yak 50, since the Chippie is apparently similar many respects to the 50 handling wise.
Just do it.
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Thanks Southern,
I thought that as it is single seat there would be some complications, and thus
a route to solo would be similar to yours.
I realised you would need extensive knowledge of the 52 before getting in the 50, but I didn't think it would be as great as 125 hours on the 52!
Congratulations, its something I am aspiring to do at some point in my flying life, was the price for the Yak 52 around the £200 mark? And was it your local school where you flew the 52 from?
Thanks for the help, maybe a trip to the states later in my life to get that Yak 52 time is needed! hehe,
Thanks again and congrats.
I thought that as it is single seat there would be some complications, and thus
a route to solo would be similar to yours.
I realised you would need extensive knowledge of the 52 before getting in the 50, but I didn't think it would be as great as 125 hours on the 52!
Congratulations, its something I am aspiring to do at some point in my flying life, was the price for the Yak 52 around the £200 mark? And was it your local school where you flew the 52 from?
Thanks for the help, maybe a trip to the states later in my life to get that Yak 52 time is needed! hehe,
Thanks again and congrats.
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Dual training with Gennady Elfimov at Skytrace (Wolverhampton Business Airport) is currently £180 per hour brakes off to brakes on I think. Check his website.
You don't need 125 hours on a 52 - it just happens that I had accumulated that time before I managed to sort out the tailwheel differences training and then get into the 50.
You don't need 125 hours on a 52 - it just happens that I had accumulated that time before I managed to sort out the tailwheel differences training and then get into the 50.
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Thanks southern,
Is Wolverhampton your local flying school, or did you just use it for the yak purposes?
How many hours would you think is needed on the 52 before the 50, and do you think it would be best to get a tailwheel conversion before or after the 52 flying?
I bet you had an excellent time flying the 50, looks like a real warbird INHO, whats the going rate for the 50?
Thanks for the response, and sorry so many questions...
Rusty
Is Wolverhampton your local flying school, or did you just use it for the yak purposes?
How many hours would you think is needed on the 52 before the 50, and do you think it would be best to get a tailwheel conversion before or after the 52 flying?
I bet you had an excellent time flying the 50, looks like a real warbird INHO, whats the going rate for the 50?
Thanks for the response, and sorry so many questions...
Rusty
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No, I'm based at North Weald. Went to Wolverhampton to learn to fly the Yak 52. Can't recommend it more highly.
Number of hours on the 52? I have to say that it is "how long is a piece of string". For me, the 52 was a big leap forward and I enjoy every flight in it. I really didn't feel ready to move up another gear until I had clocked up quite a few hours. It is your call alone really.
If you have a choice, get tailwheel time early and in the highest amounts as possible, as it is all valuable time.
Yak 50's cost between about £38k to over £50k. See the article in this month's Flyer.
Number of hours on the 52? I have to say that it is "how long is a piece of string". For me, the 52 was a big leap forward and I enjoy every flight in it. I really didn't feel ready to move up another gear until I had clocked up quite a few hours. It is your call alone really.
If you have a choice, get tailwheel time early and in the highest amounts as possible, as it is all valuable time.
Yak 50's cost between about £38k to over £50k. See the article in this month's Flyer.