NPPL(M) to Other Ratings

[john1million]

Hi Folks,

Having just completed 11 hours of training in a fixed wing microlight I have started to look into the air law with the obvious intention of getting some solo hours in fairly soon.

The problem I'm having is that I originally intended to start with microlights and if I felt the need then use this training to go on to fly larger aircraft outside of the microlight rating (obviously with further training). I was told by the school I'm learning with that the hours accumulated in microlights will be taken into consideration when I start further training but the more I look at the air law side the more I am becoming convinced that this is not the case.

I am finding the aircraft ratings and licence allowances to be very confusing and so I am wondering if you can point me to somewhere that may explain the aircraft ratings along with my intended progression more clearly?

Thanks in advance.

[BEagle]

With a NPPL (Microlight), you will be able to add an SSEA and/or SLMG Class Rating to your licence. See http://www.nationalprivatepilotslice...20REV%2008.pdf for the specific licence allowances.

However, if you eventually want a Night Qualification and/or an IMC rating, you would need a minimum of a JAR-FCL PPL with SEP Class Rating.

Allowances towards a JAR-FCL PPL are outlined in LASORS. The current version is dated 2008; the next edition is anticipated shortly.

Unfortunately, if you start with a Microlight Class Rating and 'top it up' for an SSEA Class Rating, you may well need quite a lot of SEP Class Rating dual time - because the JAA (or EASA) insist that only dual training conducted by a JAR-FCL instructor will count.

[rans6andrew]

when I got to the point of thinking about upgrading from NPPL(M) I found that I could actually do more of what I want to do with the licence I have. Easy foreign travel being the most obvious benefit, although the SSEP rated pilots are now getting this for some places. The microlight scene, cheap landings, short strip operations etc all good stuff and modern microlights are going places machines and yet cheap to run.

I really don't need four seats or night/IMC operation.

Rans6...

[Genghis the Engineer]

On the other hand, whilst I think that most of us would agree that normally somebody who has learned only in (say) Florida has some significant learning to do to fly in the UK, you wouldn't be in that position.

So, an experienced microlight pilot should be able to upgrade fairly cheaply to the JAR-FCL licence on a quick flying holiday at a school in Florida, then be able to slot back easily into flying group A (SEP for pedants like BEagle ) in the UK without problems.

I did this the year JAR came in, did my JAR-FCL PPL(SEP) at Britannia in Winter Haven in minimum hours, including a night qualification (which I've virtually never used since, but was fun doing and is nice to have), and have continued to fly both group A and microlights ever since, adding a few ratings here and there as I went along.

G

[Fake Sealion]

This question highlights the silliness of aircraft/licence classification.
For example you may gain your NPPL(M) in a EV-97 Eurostar.

Find a group A Eurostar (its the one with the electric fuel pump!) and do your NPPL(SSEA) training in that!

As its an identical machine to fly apart from one switch, what is the "additional" SSEA training supposed to encompass????

I believe there are Micro and Group A versions of other types?

[gasax]

Yes there are microlight and VLA versions of a variety of aircraft. The essential point is that licensing (and much other air law) has absolutely NO logic or sensibility to it.

It is all 'smoky rooms' well hidden from public scrutiny and usually driven by people whose motivation is in no way safety related just formed by personal and professional versted interests. Once you understand that background, the absurdity of much of this stuff ceases to amaze!!

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by gasax

Yes there are microlight and VLA versions of a variety of aircraft. The essential point is that licensing (and much other air law) has absolutely NO logic or sensibility to it.

It is all 'smoky rooms' well hidden from public scrutiny and usually driven by people whose motivation is in no way safety related just formed by personal and professional versted interests. Once you understand that background, the absurdity of much of this stuff ceases to amaze!!

Having often been one of the people in grey suits in smoky rooms, I wish that I could disagree with you.

G

[johnny3star]

My experience is similar to Rans6andrew
modern 912 powered 3 axis microlights are economic, go anywhere machines, many have an 80 knot cruise, using 12 litres per hour (Mogas).
Why on earth anyone would chose to fly a 30 yr old, heavy, CofA, Avgas guzzling relic from the 70s is a constant source of bemusement to me.
ducking now
JM

[patowalker]

Find a group A Eurostar (its the one with the electric fuel pump!) and do your NPPL(SSEA) training in that!

You cannot train for an NPPL SSEA in a Eurostar EV97A because it is a home-built. On the other hand, you can train in it for a JAR PPL if you own it and already have an NPPL SSEA.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Why on earth anyone would chose to fly a 30 yr old, heavy, CofA, Avgas guzzling relic from the 70s is a constant source of bemusement to me.

Flying ultralights - within the restraints of a tight budget - I have two reasons for dreaming of a PPL:
1) being allowed into controlled airspace, or at least not being prosecuted when straying into it
2) be able to take more luggage than a tootbrush and clean underpants

Apart from these - which EASA is supposed to settle shortly - I can only agree!

[john1million]

Well I'm still confused but you have reassured me that my training won't lead to a dead end, or that I'll have to start from scratch should I decide to go on to something larger.

Looks like I've still got plenty reading to do yet.

Thanks all.

[BEagle]

When the NPPL was being formulated, a lot of comments were made along the lines that contemporary Microlights often out performed the old 1950s combine harvester engined spamcans of the SEP world - and yet Microlight training and licensing requirements were less onerous. So why not make SSEA (or 'simple SEP' as it was then) licensing as simple?

However, it was pointed out that rocking such a boat was inadvisable. Because the high-performing Microlights were rather removed from those devices which looked like an illicit affaire between a tent and a strimmer which were around when the PPL(M) first came in. "Keep going on about how much more performance these gucci Microlights have than a C150 and you'll find yourselves regulated as a C150 pilot would be!" was one comment.....

There will always be aircraft which are right on the borderline of some regulation - such as 1999 kg certified twins which avoid 2000 kg €urocharges.

There isn't really a clear solution to this, regrettably. Would that there was!

You cannot train for an NPPL SSEA in a Eurostar EV97A because it is a home-built. On the other hand, you can train in it for a JAR PPL if you own it and already have an NPPL SSEA

Are you sure? ORS4 No 802 specifically states

Flying training excludes instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot’s licence.

Also see JAR-FCL 1.125(b)

Flight instruction. An applicant for a PPL(A) shall have completed on aeroplanes, having a certificate of airworthiness issued or accepted by a JAA Member State, at least 25 hours dual instruction and at least 10 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least five hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least one cross-country flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at two aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made. When the applicant has been credited for pilot-in-command flight time on other aircraft in accordance with JAR–FCL 1.120, the requirement for dual instruction on aeroplanes may be reduced to not less than 20 hours.

[john1million]

"JAR–FCL 1.120 Experience and crediting
(See Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.125)
An applicant for a PPL(A) shall have completed at least 45 hours flight time as a pilot
of aeroplanes; a total of 5 hours of this 45 hours may have been completed in a BITD (see Appendix 1 to JAR-FCL 1.125), a FNPT or a flight simulator. Holders of pilot licences or equivalent privileges for helicopters, microlight helicopters, gyroplanes and microlights having fixed wings and moveable aerodynamic control surfaces acting in all three dimensions, gliders, selfsustaining gliders or self-launching gliders may be
credited with 10% of their total flight time as pilot in-command in such aircraft up to a maximum of 10 hours towards a PPL(A)."

If I'm reading that correctly then once I've gained the NPPL(M) and got some hours in then I can only get 10 hours maximum credited towards the JAR-FCL PPL.

If I gain the NPPL(M) and go for the SSEA rating and fly many hours as Pilot in Command in a "Group A" aircraft then does this mean I would still need to pay for the dual training hours (at least 35) to get the JAR-FCL PPL?

Also, am I correct in thinking that the JAR-FCL PPL is a requirement should I go on to train for the night flying and the intrsument ratings? (I admit that this question may give away my level of confusion over this )

Edit: Are all UK NPPL(M) instructors JAR-FCL qualified and is there an accessable register of them?

[BEagle]

If I'm reading that correctly then once I've gained the NPPL(M) and got some hours in then I can only get 10 hours maximum credited towards the JAR-FCL PPL.

Correct - you may be credited with 10% of your PIC time up to a maximum of 10 hrs. So if you have 20 hrs PIC on Microlights, you can be credited with 2 hrs towards the 45 hr total flight time requirement for the JAR-FCL PPL(A).

If I gain the NPPL(M) and go for the SSEA rating and fly many hours as Pilot in Command in a "Group A" aircraft then does this mean I would still need to pay for the dual training hours (at least 35) to get the JAR-FCL PPL?

If you hold a NPPL (SSEA), the total of all SEP/SSEA training with a JAR-FCL FI you have received must be not less than 20 hours by the time you apply for your JAR-FCL PPL(A). So if you flew n hours PU/T for the NPPL SSEA conversion, you will need to fly another (20-n) before you can apply for a JAR-FCL PPL(A). You could have 1000 hours PIC on a NPPL (SSEA), but you would still need these (20-n) PU/T hours. Perhaps you would wish to use some of them to train for a Night Qualification whilst training for your JAR-FCL PPL(A)?

Also, am I correct in thinking that the JAR-FCL PPL is a requirement should I go on to train for the night flying and the intrsument ratings? (I admit that this question may give away my level of confusion over this )

Correct. You cannot include a Night Qualification, IMC Rating or Instrument Rating in a NPPL.

Edit: Are all UK NPPL(M) instructors JAR-FCL qualified....

No.

.......and is there an accessable register of them

I doubt it - but ask the BMAA.

[patowalker]

Quote: You cannot train for an NPPL SSEA in a Eurostar EV97A because it is a home-built. On the other hand, you can train in it for a JAR PPL if you own it and already have an NPPL SSEA

Are you sure?

Not any more

[Genghis the Engineer]

There is a UK exception which permits a sole owner (the interpretation including a named owner's immediate family) to pay an instructor to teach them to fly in an aeroplane not holding an appropriate CofA but otherwise permitted to fly (which basically means either a private CofA or a PtF).

It's buried in precedent and the ANO somewhere, but I think that it's reasonably explicitly stated in CAP733. There are some inevitable caveats about dual controls and the instructor being satisfied that the aeroplane is fit for purpose.


There is another UK exception which permits training for the NPPL(M) in certain types of microlights - those holding a "Type Approved Permit to Fly"; which includes some Eurostars, can be used for commercial flying training.

I'm about 95% certain that there is no central register of JAR instructors qualified to train on microlights; however you're likely to find such individuals in any flying school which trains on both light and microlight aeroplanes. A quick look on the websites of your local schools should tell you which those are.

G

[BEagle]

Gengh' the Eng - ORS4 No 802 and 803 have introduced certain changes regarding flight training in P-to-F aircraft. But such aircraft are still excluded from being used for paid instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot’s licence.

[patowalker]

It is interesting that the FAA accepts solo and cross-country hours flown in a (UK 3-axis) microlight as if they were flown in an SEL and counts them towards the minimum requirements for obtaining a PPL.

This suggests that instruction on a microlight provided by an ICAO compliant instructor would also count towards the minimum dual requirements for an FAA PPL.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by BEagle

Gengh' the Eng - ORS4 No 802 and 803 have introduced certain changes regarding flight training in P-to-F aircraft. But such aircraft are still excluded from being used for paid instruction in flying given for the purpose of becoming qualified for the grant of a pilot’s licence or the inclusion or variation of any rating or qualification in a pilot’s licence.

I've just read through those, and they're clear as mud; also looking at CAP 733, CAA haven't updated it in 6 years, which is probably 5 years too many. What's the current interpretation? And does it actually exist in anything that might pass muster with the Plain English Campaign.

G