Doncaster ATZ
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Doncaster ATZ
Flew into and out of Sandtoft yesterday which meant that we had to talk to Doncaster Approach. The controller was extremely busy but it was quite apparent that almost all the calls were from aircraft seeking to transit the Doncaster Zone or requesting a basic service. I think we heard two aircraft actually using Doncaster Airport and one of those was a PA28 on a training flight.
A look at the arrivals/departures for Doncaster Robin Hood usually reveals less than a total of 40 commercial movements each 24 hours. I know it has been said before but the recent reduction in flight travel only emphasises that this arport doesn't need such a vast control zone stretching from Goole in the North to Mansfield in the South for so few commercial flights. All it has done has increase the workload on private pilots.
A look at the arrivals/departures for Doncaster Robin Hood usually reveals less than a total of 40 commercial movements each 24 hours. I know it has been said before but the recent reduction in flight travel only emphasises that this arport doesn't need such a vast control zone stretching from Goole in the North to Mansfield in the South for so few commercial flights. All it has done has increase the workload on private pilots.
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Perhaps the answer is to charge these airports for the airspace which they so 'desperately' need in such a way that it becomes increasingly expensive as commercial flights become fewer and fewer.
That way, maybe 'Little Ditchling Intergalactic Spaceport' would be less inclined to insist on ludicrous volumes of airspace for their one daily flight and we could remove some of the notorious pinch points around the country.
That way, maybe 'Little Ditchling Intergalactic Spaceport' would be less inclined to insist on ludicrous volumes of airspace for their one daily flight and we could remove some of the notorious pinch points around the country.
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The St. Leger Zone
Having flown through it and around it as I couldn't get a word in for ages, I think it should stay.
Regardless of the number of movements at Finningley, the airspace around there is busy and any radar service is better than nothing.
Regardless of the number of movements at Finningley, the airspace around there is busy and any radar service is better than nothing.
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What route is there to challenge the notification of excessive airspace? The new Canadian owners of Peel Airports and hence Donny Int'l are hardly likely to be aware of the issue. CAA DAP are reactive not generally proactive, unless a small grass aerodrome hands in its licence - then they pull any ATZ that was established.
So, unless someone knows better, I think we're stuck. Come to think of it, when was the last time CAS shrunk?
Sir George Cayley
So, unless someone knows better, I think we're stuck. Come to think of it, when was the last time CAS shrunk?
Sir George Cayley
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Flying out of Gamston I am also affected by the Donny CTR or should I say not affected by the Donny CTR. There is plenty of room to go round it at below 2000ft/1500ft and there is a "listening watch" squawk (6170 ) so the work load is not necessarily increased for the GA pilot. If a Basic (or higher) Service is required the controllers are usually very helpful even when dealing with many transiting GA aircraft plus the occasional Commercial arrival/departure.
On balance I find Doncaster an extra tool in the provision of assistance if and when required along with Waddington, Humberside and East Mids in our local area. We are are very lucky to have these facilities available for free.You don't have to talk to them unless you need to. I find you can glean traffic information, pressure settings, restrictions etc by just listening to the frequencies, especially when they are busy with transiting GA aircraft and can't get a word in edge-ways. I often listen to 2 frequencies just to maintain my situational awareness.
On balance I find Doncaster an extra tool in the provision of assistance if and when required along with Waddington, Humberside and East Mids in our local area. We are are very lucky to have these facilities available for free.You don't have to talk to them unless you need to. I find you can glean traffic information, pressure settings, restrictions etc by just listening to the frequencies, especially when they are busy with transiting GA aircraft and can't get a word in edge-ways. I often listen to 2 frequencies just to maintain my situational awareness.
Last edited by funflier44; 21st Aug 2010 at 07:20.
Seems to be some confusion here between (a) ATZ = Aerodrome Traffic Zone, (b) CTR = Control Zone, and (c) TMZ = Transponder Mandatory Zone.
Doncaster has (a) and (b), but not (c).
Doncaster has (a) and (b), but not (c).
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Controllers at Liverpool working Doncaster Radar
There is a really good map of the area in the bottom half of this pdf, which may take a few seconds to load after the text shows up.
Radar Approach Control Services at Liverpool and Doncaster Airports
September 2009
Following the installation of Raytheon ASR-10 radars at Liverpool John Lennon Airport (LJLA) and Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield (RHADS), Cyrrus was engaged to assist with finalising the radar system elements for the equipment. This project delivered fully plot-extracted radar data to the LJLA/RHADS combined Approach Control facility located at LJLA. For RHADS, the ‘ownership’ of a radar is a new experience, having relied on data from RAF Waddington until now, whilst at LJLA the new Raytheon product replaced that unit’s S511 radar. The transition into operational service of the new LJLA and RHADS radars took place on 9 Sep and 22 Sep respectively.
September 2009
Following the installation of Raytheon ASR-10 radars at Liverpool John Lennon Airport (LJLA) and Robin Hood Airport Doncaster Sheffield (RHADS), Cyrrus was engaged to assist with finalising the radar system elements for the equipment. This project delivered fully plot-extracted radar data to the LJLA/RHADS combined Approach Control facility located at LJLA. For RHADS, the ‘ownership’ of a radar is a new experience, having relied on data from RAF Waddington until now, whilst at LJLA the new Raytheon product replaced that unit’s S511 radar. The transition into operational service of the new LJLA and RHADS radars took place on 9 Sep and 22 Sep respectively.
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If the airspace is not required it should be reduced in size. That way you still get the services, but you reduce the rat run of aircraft scurrying round the edge by giving them more room.
Rod1
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My mistake about the TMZ - apologies. It just shows how easy it is to make incorrect conclusions. I was reading this in a publication about listening squawks and it was listed along with Stansted, Belfast etc. which do have a TMZ. Thanks PPRUNE.
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As alluded to by Sir George Cayley, the major shareholder for both Liverpool and Doncaster is now Vancouver Airport Services. They are obviously still coming to terms with what they have aquired. They will know by now that the approach controllers for Doncaster are working from Liverpool using a radar feed. They will also find that they are providing a quasi LARS facility for aircraft in and around Doncaster Robin Hood Airport. Therefore they may consider that the cost is not worthwhile in view of the very limited commercial movements at their airport.
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<<Come to think of it, when was the last time CAS shrunk?>>
Don't know the last time, but they reduced the size of the London Control Zone some years ago. Lord knows why.
Don't know the last time, but they reduced the size of the London Control Zone some years ago. Lord knows why.
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Because they (LATCC and their CAT) didn't need it, and we (certainly gliding, and maybe other GA) did.
At least one bit of LTMA should never have been CAS in the first place - it was not required to accommodate any procedural things such as SIDs or STARs, and was a flagrant breach of evidence given by the CAA at the 1983 Stansted enquiry that they never took a single cubic centimetre of airspace that wasn't needed. The CAA had told me soon after it was first grabbed that it had no justification, but it was too much hassle to release it again very quickly. It took years of nagging before they finally let it go again.
It is things like that that make the BGA fight very hard over every piece of new CAS, unless the justification is strong.
Chris N
At least one bit of LTMA should never have been CAS in the first place - it was not required to accommodate any procedural things such as SIDs or STARs, and was a flagrant breach of evidence given by the CAA at the 1983 Stansted enquiry that they never took a single cubic centimetre of airspace that wasn't needed. The CAA had told me soon after it was first grabbed that it had no justification, but it was too much hassle to release it again very quickly. It took years of nagging before they finally let it go again.
It is things like that that make the BGA fight very hard over every piece of new CAS, unless the justification is strong.
Chris N
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The service from liverpool for Doncaster Radar has caused some confusion on occasions. I have called up a few times and the response has been 'Liverpool Radar'.
I've flown in and out of Doncaster many times, and used the Radar service a lot without any problems. The service has always been excellent. The one time that I managed to 'clip' the airspace climbing to quickly out of Sandtoft to the East, I was forgiven quickly when I called the controller after landing.
On the other hand, you have Humberside nearby, where whilst tracking the humber across the ILS have been 'asked' if I would be able to Maintain my course and speed (and of course complied, no reason not to) to see a Fokker 70 pass underneath.
Both systems seem to work though.
The problem I see is that some pilots who really just want to fly and don't have the confidence and interest to deal with controlled airspace / controlled airfields seem to find their activities restricted more and more. I've come across many of these pilots and can see their point as well.
I've flown in and out of Doncaster many times, and used the Radar service a lot without any problems. The service has always been excellent. The one time that I managed to 'clip' the airspace climbing to quickly out of Sandtoft to the East, I was forgiven quickly when I called the controller after landing.
On the other hand, you have Humberside nearby, where whilst tracking the humber across the ILS have been 'asked' if I would be able to Maintain my course and speed (and of course complied, no reason not to) to see a Fokker 70 pass underneath.
Both systems seem to work though.
The problem I see is that some pilots who really just want to fly and don't have the confidence and interest to deal with controlled airspace / controlled airfields seem to find their activities restricted more and more. I've come across many of these pilots and can see their point as well.
