Confused and frustrated
MightyDuck,
Don't be discouraged. Looking from the inside, you really cannot judge how much progress you are making. Myself a slow learner, I spent several times an hour or more running touch & go's, and drove home with the feeling the last circuit was no different from the first. Yet one day I was suddenly sent up solo - and managed quite well, to my lasting delight and surprise. Certainly every student will pick up some points easier than some others - sideslipping came naturally to me, and I still enjoy it a good deal; whereas some fellow students told me they remain uneasy about it.
BTW myself had two instructors and that was a nice formula for me - they each had their style and their habits, and I knew what to expect from each. I could not have managed more, I think.
OTOH, you are passing a good deal of money and you should have some say in the way it is spent. If you request to have one single instructor your flight school should be able AND willing to arrange this - otherwise you had indeed better find someone else on whom to bestow your hard-earned pecuniaries.
Don't be discouraged. Looking from the inside, you really cannot judge how much progress you are making. Myself a slow learner, I spent several times an hour or more running touch & go's, and drove home with the feeling the last circuit was no different from the first. Yet one day I was suddenly sent up solo - and managed quite well, to my lasting delight and surprise. Certainly every student will pick up some points easier than some others - sideslipping came naturally to me, and I still enjoy it a good deal; whereas some fellow students told me they remain uneasy about it.
BTW myself had two instructors and that was a nice formula for me - they each had their style and their habits, and I knew what to expect from each. I could not have managed more, I think.
OTOH, you are passing a good deal of money and you should have some say in the way it is spent. If you request to have one single instructor your flight school should be able AND willing to arrange this - otherwise you had indeed better find someone else on whom to bestow your hard-earned pecuniaries.
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The biggest problem is that different instructors have very different methods and ideas about what is right and wrong, often damning what other instructors say as a load of rubbish when each method may well be perfectly safe.
When I fly with a student who has flown with another instructor, I let them stick to their standard procedures as long as they are safe. The key areas are things like use of carb heat, and touch and go technique (to put on power first or raise flap). By hopping from one instructor to another early on you get told contrasting things each lesson, and are too inexperienced to make your own mind up about what is the right thing.
When I fly with a student who has flown with another instructor, I let them stick to their standard procedures as long as they are safe. The key areas are things like use of carb heat, and touch and go technique (to put on power first or raise flap). By hopping from one instructor to another early on you get told contrasting things each lesson, and are too inexperienced to make your own mind up about what is the right thing.
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When I fly with a student who has flown with another instructor, I let them stick to their standard procedures as long as they are safe. The key areas are things like use of carb heat, and touch and go technique (to put on power first or raise flap). By hopping from one instructor to another early on you get told contrasting things each lesson, and are too inexperienced to make your own mind up about what is the right thing.
I was chatting to a student recently who was very upset because his instructor (different to his previous lesson) had bawled him out for not being properly prepared. One of his crimes was that he forgot his checklist at home. Please - just lend him another, for goodness sake!
The student was so upset after the briefing that he didn't want to do the flying part of the lesson - which meant the instructor received nothing.
Flying schools really need to become more professional and stop acting as if we were still in the early days of flying. There are just too many stories from upset students. Ok - it might be partly the student's attitude - but then not many students come away from an art or language lesson feeling like this. It's pathetic.
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MD,
It may be your school, it may be your instructors, or it may be your abilities. Only the last one you can't actually change
I was incredibly lucky in that I had some very good instructors and got through my PPL in minimum hours.
However shortly after getting my PPL my school got taken over by another, and I found myself with a major problem with a new instructor. The problem instantly went away when we both agreed that a change of instructors might be a good idea.
Later I had a similar problem with another instructor (in another club), and again the problem went away when I flew with the CFI.
I later discovered that many people had problems with these two instructors....
The point is that a different instructor may very well change things totally for you.
Or perhaps a change of flight school might be needed two. Flying is expensive and there is no point spending your hard earned money if a) you're not enjoying it, and b) you're not making any progress.
I would try changing first your instructor so that you're with one instructor that you learn well from and only fly with them. If that doesn't solve your problem, then change schools.
If that doesn't solve your problem then maybe try a different type of flying. It's too expensive not to enjoy it!
It may be your school, it may be your instructors, or it may be your abilities. Only the last one you can't actually change
I was incredibly lucky in that I had some very good instructors and got through my PPL in minimum hours.
However shortly after getting my PPL my school got taken over by another, and I found myself with a major problem with a new instructor. The problem instantly went away when we both agreed that a change of instructors might be a good idea.
Later I had a similar problem with another instructor (in another club), and again the problem went away when I flew with the CFI.
I later discovered that many people had problems with these two instructors....
The point is that a different instructor may very well change things totally for you.
Or perhaps a change of flight school might be needed two. Flying is expensive and there is no point spending your hard earned money if a) you're not enjoying it, and b) you're not making any progress.
I would try changing first your instructor so that you're with one instructor that you learn well from and only fly with them. If that doesn't solve your problem, then change schools.
If that doesn't solve your problem then maybe try a different type of flying. It's too expensive not to enjoy it!
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I agree with most replies that you should not be expected to cope with frequent (any) changes of instructor, specially in the early stages. It's all about confidence and it's easy to see that yours has been damaged. Confidence in the instructor is key.
You don't say what period your 8 hours were completed over? Try to have one lesson a week, minimum, better 2 per week. This may mean booking four a week, due weather and other factors...
You don't say what period your 8 hours were completed over? Try to have one lesson a week, minimum, better 2 per week. This may mean booking four a week, due weather and other factors...
i went down today thinking i was going to be doing stalls only to find out i'd be going over climbing and descending again which didn't go well the first time.
Even with a change of instructor your record would have said where you were and what should be next. So where has the confusion about the lesson content come from?
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After being thoroughly messed around at one flying school for my first few lessons I transferred to another - had one excellent lady instructor and passed my skills test about 8 months later.
Being off work for some months and having some unexpected funds I was able to complete my PPL in a shorter time. Having lessons closer together definitely helps.
Having said that I had to wait for 2-3 weeks for the right weather for my XC and a similar time for the skills test.
Don't give up! You'll be glad you persisted.
Being off work for some months and having some unexpected funds I was able to complete my PPL in a shorter time. Having lessons closer together definitely helps.
Having said that I had to wait for 2-3 weeks for the right weather for my XC and a similar time for the skills test.
Don't give up! You'll be glad you persisted.
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i thought i was going to be doing stalls because i saw it recommended on my debreif form but so was climbing and descending.
I'm doin two lessons a week. i done another lesson today. not climbing and descending. althought it was climbing and descending turns. and yet another new instructor. however i was most comfortable with this guy. he gave me a lot of confidence and told me i done very well.
I decided to give the CFI a ring tomorrow and try to get that guy for good and see how that goes.
I'm doin two lessons a week. i done another lesson today. not climbing and descending. althought it was climbing and descending turns. and yet another new instructor. however i was most comfortable with this guy. he gave me a lot of confidence and told me i done very well.
I decided to give the CFI a ring tomorrow and try to get that guy for good and see how that goes.
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Sounds like a very positive step.
Don't get too worried about your progress against other students. Different schools and different instructors teach at very different paces. The fact you may not have flown a take off or landing doesn't seem surprising. The surface wind may have been unsuitable for a first take off or landing, and some instructors just don't let their students do it until they get to 12-13, or at least past climbing/descending. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different teaching method.
My school has introduced an SOP that each of the early exercises must be covered in at least an hour. This makes it impossible to go solo in the 8 hours or less that some students will quote, but in my opinion it builds a good foundation that makes the rest of the course go much better.
It's a marathon not a sprint.
Don't get too worried about your progress against other students. Different schools and different instructors teach at very different paces. The fact you may not have flown a take off or landing doesn't seem surprising. The surface wind may have been unsuitable for a first take off or landing, and some instructors just don't let their students do it until they get to 12-13, or at least past climbing/descending. There's nothing wrong with that, it's just a different teaching method.
My school has introduced an SOP that each of the early exercises must be covered in at least an hour. This makes it impossible to go solo in the 8 hours or less that some students will quote, but in my opinion it builds a good foundation that makes the rest of the course go much better.
It's a marathon not a sprint.
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Hey, Mighty Ducks on the Emerald Isle!
Sounds like you are not enjoying yourself. And all these earnest pilots are giving you a variety of advice.
Here is something completely different. Are you learning to fly because you want to be an airline pilot? or do you just want to learn to fly for fun, because it is something you always wanted to do and dreamed about?
To become an airline pilot you had better get on very well with your bank manager. Cost at least £30,000, or thereabouts.
To have fun flying, give yourself a break from that flying school treadmill, and go drop in on the gliding club at Gowran Grange, that's the Dublin Gliding Club. You can probably google for contacts and directions.
Dont expect a lot, just visit, observe, see if it is something you might want to try. If you do try it, you may find you like it.
And nothing but nothing makes power flying easier than a gliding background. Just the essentials! Takeoff, look around, fly around, and land. And help out with the ground work as that's what keeps gliding less expensive, everyone pitches in.
I'm sure they will make a fine young fellow like yourself very welcome.
Mary
Sounds like you are not enjoying yourself. And all these earnest pilots are giving you a variety of advice.
Here is something completely different. Are you learning to fly because you want to be an airline pilot? or do you just want to learn to fly for fun, because it is something you always wanted to do and dreamed about?
To become an airline pilot you had better get on very well with your bank manager. Cost at least £30,000, or thereabouts.
To have fun flying, give yourself a break from that flying school treadmill, and go drop in on the gliding club at Gowran Grange, that's the Dublin Gliding Club. You can probably google for contacts and directions.
Dont expect a lot, just visit, observe, see if it is something you might want to try. If you do try it, you may find you like it.
And nothing but nothing makes power flying easier than a gliding background. Just the essentials! Takeoff, look around, fly around, and land. And help out with the ground work as that's what keeps gliding less expensive, everyone pitches in.
I'm sure they will make a fine young fellow like yourself very welcome.
Mary
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I agree, go and have fun either gliding, or in a fixed wing microlight (that's what I fly) 
Go back to the expensive tin cans when you've got the hang of flying (If your not having so much fun you don't want to go back that is!)
Go back to the expensive tin cans when you've got the hang of flying (If your not having so much fun you don't want to go back that is!)
Last edited by The Fenland Flyer; 20th Aug 2010 at 17:58.
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To glide or not to glide, that is the question
Hi MD,
I regret I must disagree with what has been posted by the gliding enthusiasts.
Their advice is rather like advising a learner car driver, who is having difficulty with his car driving, to go off and ride a bike to improve his driving. What he wants to do is drive a car and to detour him onto another type of vehicle entirely is mostly a waste of his time and money.
I too started off gliding. Certainly, it taught me lessons that later proved valuable when I came to learn to fly powered aircraft; indeed they continue to be valuable even now. But the cost in terms of time and money would never have been justified if my only objective had been to be a better power pilot. It was only justified because at that time I wanted to glide.
I remember the frustration of gliding, the long flying lists of people awaiting their turn to fly, with my name at or near the very bottom. Many times I had to work like a trojan all day, in the hope that I might just get to fly once for a few minutes sometime before flying ceased for the day at 9 p.m. Many times I worked a whole weekend at the gliding site in the hope of getting a flight and did not succeed in doing so.
At London Gliding Club, you needed a seperate checkout for each and every approach on the field, so that if the wind changed to an approach you were not checked out on, you couldn't fly solo.
I would say don't take up gliding merely to improve your powered flying.
If you just happen to fancy a new flying experience, and can afford the time and cost, then I would say definitely take a week's gliding holiday one summer. But don't take up gliding every weekend to improve your powered flying as you will have to give up the one (and lose all currency) in order to pursue the other.
Regards,
Broomstick.
I regret I must disagree with what has been posted by the gliding enthusiasts.
Their advice is rather like advising a learner car driver, who is having difficulty with his car driving, to go off and ride a bike to improve his driving. What he wants to do is drive a car and to detour him onto another type of vehicle entirely is mostly a waste of his time and money.
I too started off gliding. Certainly, it taught me lessons that later proved valuable when I came to learn to fly powered aircraft; indeed they continue to be valuable even now. But the cost in terms of time and money would never have been justified if my only objective had been to be a better power pilot. It was only justified because at that time I wanted to glide.
I remember the frustration of gliding, the long flying lists of people awaiting their turn to fly, with my name at or near the very bottom. Many times I had to work like a trojan all day, in the hope that I might just get to fly once for a few minutes sometime before flying ceased for the day at 9 p.m. Many times I worked a whole weekend at the gliding site in the hope of getting a flight and did not succeed in doing so.
At London Gliding Club, you needed a seperate checkout for each and every approach on the field, so that if the wind changed to an approach you were not checked out on, you couldn't fly solo.
I would say don't take up gliding merely to improve your powered flying.
If you just happen to fancy a new flying experience, and can afford the time and cost, then I would say definitely take a week's gliding holiday one summer. But don't take up gliding every weekend to improve your powered flying as you will have to give up the one (and lose all currency) in order to pursue the other.
Regards,
Broomstick.
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Ah, Broomstick, London Gliding Club is very different from Dublin. And anyone who lives in the stockbroker belt must resent spending time at a gliding club. Obviously, time is money, for Broomstick.
Don't let him put you off, Mighty Ducks. Just as riding a bicycle can be a lot more fun than driving a car in London traffic, or sitting in the traffic jam fuming, so flying a glider, sharing a thermal with a red kite, or 3 other gliders, is fun, wonderful fun, and that's the only reason we do it.
I can drive a spam can, too, big deal. Its fun, especially if its a sea plane, but you can fall in love with gliding. Don't kid yourself that power flying can be a business tool or a form of transport - its mainly for posers.
LOL
Don't let him put you off, Mighty Ducks. Just as riding a bicycle can be a lot more fun than driving a car in London traffic, or sitting in the traffic jam fuming, so flying a glider, sharing a thermal with a red kite, or 3 other gliders, is fun, wonderful fun, and that's the only reason we do it.
I can drive a spam can, too, big deal. Its fun, especially if its a sea plane, but you can fall in love with gliding. Don't kid yourself that power flying can be a business tool or a form of transport - its mainly for posers.
LOL
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Change....
Mighty Duck,
I think your situation is not new and at some stage in everyone's flying life the 'frustration' does kick in with different event... like not being able to progress quicker, the lack of funds forcing you down and unwanted path or and the dam weather....etc.
Instructors in my books are of two type the ones you can learn from and the ones who can teach!! and this comes down to personal aptitude and alot of attitude (the positive kind I mean) .. In one way or the other everyone's comments out here reflect the same message.
Find an instructor in the school you can be honest with.. don't hesitate to tell them what you think, it's a two way learning curve no matter how old or experienced someone is.. feedback is 'constructive'...if you want it to be! And don't forget its your MONEY at the end of the day.. ask yourself what value do you gain out of the instructors time and was it worth it.... if you don't feel any more confident after trying this approach find another school.
I hope you things go well for you ....
Cheers!
I think your situation is not new and at some stage in everyone's flying life the 'frustration' does kick in with different event... like not being able to progress quicker, the lack of funds forcing you down and unwanted path or and the dam weather....etc.
Instructors in my books are of two type the ones you can learn from and the ones who can teach!! and this comes down to personal aptitude and alot of attitude (the positive kind I mean) .. In one way or the other everyone's comments out here reflect the same message.
Find an instructor in the school you can be honest with.. don't hesitate to tell them what you think, it's a two way learning curve no matter how old or experienced someone is.. feedback is 'constructive'...if you want it to be! And don't forget its your MONEY at the end of the day.. ask yourself what value do you gain out of the instructors time and was it worth it.... if you don't feel any more confident after trying this approach find another school.
I hope you things go well for you ....
Cheers!
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As everybody else seems to be advocating a move away from flying 'spam cans' (WTF?) - can I recommend that you take up ballooning - or parachuting - or better still BASE jumping? Not what you were asking but hey, we all know better than you!
Constructive, eh?
Constructive, eh?
Moderator
Gliding training as a supplement to power training? In my opinion, not the best idea. Not the worst either, it it just a distraction. Gliding is wonderful, and yes, it really does teach you precision in your flying, and how to get the most out of the simplest aspects of being airborne, which has great importance.
But it will distract you somewhat, because some aspects of flying unpowered vs powered are different. From what I understand your position, and challenges are, my opinion is that this would be more a detrement, than a benefit to your progression with power planes. If it interests you, certainly go try. But as a diversion stepping stone during PPL training, it won't get you any further ahead. When you get back in the power plane, there will be a few things you have to do the "other way" again, and this transition back and forth requires a pilot skill set which is still just at the very beginning for you.
When you're learning and practicing something, If you're struggling, don't change what you're learning in, but how you're learning in it!
Once you're very confident in a type of aircraft, very certainly, try others, and master them. There are dozens of different configurations of aircraft, and they all have their merits, and you should learn them all if you can, but one step forward at a time...
And by the way, some pilots are too good to fly aircraft that remind them of "Spam". If the plane looks like spam, smells like spam, contains spam (not in its original can), I agree, don't fly it. Otherwise, a well maintained, clean simple aircraft can be a delight, and has a vitail role in the economical training of new pilots, and the long term satisfaction of experienced ones. 23 years ago tomorrow I bought the C-150 which I fly regularly, and have no intention of selling. It is one of 81 different aircraft types I have flown, and it's still what I prefer, when I have to pay to be airborne!
By the way, I looked at the pleasant Cessna 162 at Oshkosh, and although I quite like it, it seems no less a "can" than a 150. There are very certainly safety and structural reasons I prefer a conventional construction metal airplane over some other designs, but that is a subject for a different thread!
But it will distract you somewhat, because some aspects of flying unpowered vs powered are different. From what I understand your position, and challenges are, my opinion is that this would be more a detrement, than a benefit to your progression with power planes. If it interests you, certainly go try. But as a diversion stepping stone during PPL training, it won't get you any further ahead. When you get back in the power plane, there will be a few things you have to do the "other way" again, and this transition back and forth requires a pilot skill set which is still just at the very beginning for you.
When you're learning and practicing something, If you're struggling, don't change what you're learning in, but how you're learning in it!
Once you're very confident in a type of aircraft, very certainly, try others, and master them. There are dozens of different configurations of aircraft, and they all have their merits, and you should learn them all if you can, but one step forward at a time...
And by the way, some pilots are too good to fly aircraft that remind them of "Spam". If the plane looks like spam, smells like spam, contains spam (not in its original can), I agree, don't fly it. Otherwise, a well maintained, clean simple aircraft can be a delight, and has a vitail role in the economical training of new pilots, and the long term satisfaction of experienced ones. 23 years ago tomorrow I bought the C-150 which I fly regularly, and have no intention of selling. It is one of 81 different aircraft types I have flown, and it's still what I prefer, when I have to pay to be airborne!
By the way, I looked at the pleasant Cessna 162 at Oshkosh, and although I quite like it, it seems no less a "can" than a 150. There are very certainly safety and structural reasons I prefer a conventional construction metal airplane over some other designs, but that is a subject for a different thread!
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In spite of the fact that I too did the gliding thing because I enjoyed gliding, (I had a share in a K6e). I must agree with Broomstick, I have spent many a weekend driving tractors & winches to find myself finally airborne just before the red light got switched on at the clubhouse! Gliding is a dedication thing, very satifying staying up in marginal lift, etc, but if one actually wants to fly & go somewhere with a reasonably good chance of arriving at the previously chosen destination, then a fan on the front is a necessity. Gliding will improve your flying skills, yes, there is a cameraderie among those glider pilots that are prepared to muck in together. but there are them that phone up at 7 am asking to be put on the flying list, then turn up at 1030 expecting to jump in & go! These are called Plonkers!! As for "posers", Mary, I fly a 1959 taildragger out of a usually deserted grass strip, no bar to lean on, no bimbos to impress. I just drive home happy after Iv'e managed to put all 3 wheels on the ground at the same time & stopped in 100yards. What other people think, *&^%$£"!. Mighty Ducks, If your exercises are "not going too good" then your instructor either didn't get it across, or didn't try to! or you didn't get it. Either way it is no use going on to the next bit until you do. I would be a bit suspicious of only doing one take off in 8 hours, our instructors would let you do that at lesson 2 or earlier.
Gliding as a way to learn powered flight: tosh.
Gliding is an excellent way to burn money*, and an OK-ish way to improve some aspects of your flying skills once you can already deal with basics. Just like taildraggers (for the second point anyway, they're not especially expensive).
Advantages of powered aircraft:
1. They're what you what want to end up doing (presumably).
2. You can do this neat trick called a "go around" when your landing is terminally messed up - which is guaranteed to be often in the early stages.
3. You can fly for as long as you're likely to want to, while you do things like airwork.
4. You can go to other places - that you have chosen before you start the flight.
I could go on.
n5296s
* - my one brief experience of gliding was that per hour it cost me as much as the Pitts, i.e. a LOT. Actual glider time is inexpensive, but all those tows cost a fortune. Glider pilots talk about this mysterious thing called "lift", but we (me + instructor) never found any. And if you do find some, you'd better have seriously good flying skills to take advantage of it, since it involves flying steep turns on the hairy edge of a stall. Easy when you know how, potentially fatal before that.
Gliding is an excellent way to burn money*, and an OK-ish way to improve some aspects of your flying skills once you can already deal with basics. Just like taildraggers (for the second point anyway, they're not especially expensive).
Advantages of powered aircraft:
1. They're what you what want to end up doing (presumably).
2. You can do this neat trick called a "go around" when your landing is terminally messed up - which is guaranteed to be often in the early stages.
3. You can fly for as long as you're likely to want to, while you do things like airwork.
4. You can go to other places - that you have chosen before you start the flight.
I could go on.
n5296s
* - my one brief experience of gliding was that per hour it cost me as much as the Pitts, i.e. a LOT. Actual glider time is inexpensive, but all those tows cost a fortune. Glider pilots talk about this mysterious thing called "lift", but we (me + instructor) never found any. And if you do find some, you'd better have seriously good flying skills to take advantage of it, since it involves flying steep turns on the hairy edge of a stall. Easy when you know how, potentially fatal before that.