GA Pilot busts Red Arrows at Eastbourne

[niknak]

THe key phrase hear seems to be "on the run in to the display".

Was this pilot inside the TRA ? If not then the standard rules of the air apply.

All Red Arrows displays start and finish within the published TRA, including the "run in".
Anything outwith the TRA is perfectly entitled to be there subject to the existing type of airspace, anything inside it without permission risks thumscrews being applied.

The pilot of the infringing aircraft should have had the balls to hold his/her hands up, by not doing so they will be chased and traced by the CAA.
Assuming it was a genuine error and they come clean when they find out about this, or have another reasonable excuse, all they'll get a stiff letter reminding them of their responsibilities.
If they hide, deny it, stick their fingers in their ears there is a high possiblity of extremely expensive court action being taken by the CAA.

[Roffa]

...the culprit seemed to have landed in the nearest available field...

There wasn't a tree in the field with an aeroplane stuck in it, was there?

[drambuster]

Was this pilot inside the TRA ?

During the RT exchange there was no direct comment made as to whether the GA pilot was in the TRA or not. However, judging by the barely suppressed seething anger of Red Leader I would say he probably was !

We had initially been talking to Manston Radar as we crossed the Channel at 4500' and the Arrows were on that same frequency as I believe they took off from RAF Manston. We were both asked to transfer to Farnborough Radar at the same time and as we crossed the coast at Lydd we were asked to watch out for the Arrows below (but being in IMC at the time there was no chance of any eyeball contact). The NOTAM had stated they would be at 2000' AGL (but subject to weather so I reckon prevailing conditions would have pushed them well below that) so we knew the previous day there would be no conflict with us even though our flight plan was going to coincide at Lydd with their transit from east to west.

I would say the incident kicked off about three minutes after we crossed paths so I am pretty sure they would have been in the TRA by then, but that is only a guess . . . not a fact. No doubt we will hear more in due course as Farnborough seemed to be throwing every resource at tracking this guy down and had even pinpointed the field where he was lying low ! (though I don't know how effective their radar is below 500' - I guess he could have hedge-hopped all the way home).

And to clarify: when I used the term "run-in" it would probably have been clearer if I had said "transit" as it is not clear whether the conflict was, or was not, in the TRA.

Best to keep that TRA number handy : 0500 354 802

[flybymike]

Why do Red Arrows displays get an RA(T) and civilian displays do not? Is it just because the military are more important people who sound impressively cross on the radio?
(And why do the Royal Family get chased by class A wherever they go?)

[Intercepted]

And why do the Royal Family get chased by class A wherever they go?

To make you and me to understand where we belong in the hierarchy.

[IO540]

To make you and me to understand where we belong in the hierarchy.

And quite right too!

We are her "subjects" after all.

The trouble with people these days is that they just don't know how to show proper deference.

The other thing about the royal airspace is that if you wanted to blow them up, all you need is a free login to the NATS website, and a suitable shoulder-launched "appliance" which, according to the Sunday Sport, you can pick up anywhere east of Israel for US$950 and that is still in the original shrink wrapped package. Evidently, some people in the establishment are somewhat less than bright but, hey, they are only Arts graduates and degrees these days are not what they used to be, either...

[englishal]

Can't you buy them on eBay these days from ex-paras

I would love to see a squadron based team of say 4 Typhoons.

I saw the US Blue Angels at the Miramar airshow (you know, where Maverick and Goose trained) a few years ago. Despite being supersonic, superdupa jet fighters I have got to say the Reds were FAR better in their Hawks. The reason for this is that the Reds kept their display close to the crowd, the Blue Angels, quite impressive though they were, were zooming all over the place and half the time you couldn't see them as they were over downtown San Diego at mach 0.99. After burners were nice for take off but I also thought they looked prats the way they saluted and all marched out to their aeroplanes looking like a bunch of automated Joe 90's in perfect step with the shades and matching harcuts

I think the Reds should definitely stay, (as should the Royal Family), they are British and something to be proud of and in the grand scheme of things they don't cost very much to operate.

If this person did bust the TRA and then landed in a field to try to get away then their license should be revoked until they have carried out remedial training with an examiner (rather than an expensive prosecution).

[Mike Cross]

It would be interesting to know how many people do actually face prosecution for airspace busts etc.

Seek and ye shall find. (Well almost, that only lists successful prosecutions)

Looks like another one of these

Article 63 & Article 85 (2), ANO 2000
Endangering/Temporary Restricted Area Infringement
Eastbourne Magistrates Court
Guilty plea
Fine £2000 Endangering
Fine £1000 Infringement

From the 2005/6 stats. ISTR he was Belgian rather than Dutch.

Mike

[IO540]

Yes, the Belgian pilot. He even came back to the UK afterwards so he could get done.

I vaguely recall he did get notams but then he went off his planned route.

[Fuji Abound]

as I believe they took off from RAF Manston.

being pedantic, it is a long time since it was anything to do with the RAF.

[Steve N]

englishal said:

I think the Reds should definitely stay, (as should the Royal Family), they are British and something to be proud of and in the grand scheme of things they don't cost very much to operate

I agree but I wonder if that same level of talent was put into a squadron of Extras wouldn't that be more entertaining? (the Reds not the Royal family ) I bet the pilots would enjoy it more too. Also they could do the whole display in the space of a ATZ so no need for RA/Ts thereby reducing the infringement rates.

Steve

[VictorGolf]

This is pretty much what you have already got in the "Blades". There are at least four ex Red Arrows flying these Extras in RAFA colours this year and good though they are, the real thing is a lot better show on the big stage.

[Rod1]

I think the Reads should stay, but I wish they would stop transiting at 2000ft at high speed on days when the sky if full of GA. Very dangerous and unnecessary.

Rod1

[stevelup]

They did a very nice flypast of EGBJ last weekend not much above circuit height

[pulse1]

Rod1,

I've got to agree with you. I didn't realise how fast they transit until I checked the NOTAM today and analysed the times (10 minutes from Worthing to Corfe Castle). They must do 360 kts which, with a 10 ship formation and only one pair of eyes looking out, is too fast at that altitude IMO.
What happened to the old adage that military flew very low or very high?

[Echo Romeo]

I think the Reads should stay, but I wish they would stop transiting at 2000ft at high speed on days when the sky if full of GA. Very dangerous and unnecessary.

Rod1 E]

Agree, They notam that their transit altitude may vary, but I have seen them on three occasions this summer down at nearer a 1000ft.

[IO540]

A notam is going to do a whole lot of good if they are doing 360kt at 2000ft.

[codemonkey]

i imagine the red arrows find it easy to get upset when somebody busts their temporary airspace. but just to play devils advocate let's not forget that these guys are flying on taxpayers money. one way to look at things would be that we all pay through the nose for avgas so that the exchequer can fund this type of thing, while airspace that would normally be at the disposal of you and i is gifted to them at will. no doubt the ga guy was in the wrong but it would be easy for a ga pilot to get upset as well.

[IO540]

From a purely risk management POV, I would not fly at 2000ft (or anywhere near that low) especially if flying (as they do - saw them today) in a formation.

They probably do it out of tradition, and to be maximally visible to the public while transiting.

They probably also cannot transit IMC while in a formation - I wonder what their procedure for that is?

It would be really interesting to know if they can get a popup clearance for IFR in CAS, because I sure as hell can't

[NigelOnDraft]

Well, what height / format would you have them transit at?

The majority of shows / flypasts they need to do (NB their transits often include 1 or 2 flypasts which clearly need to be done at/below 2000') are away from major airfields with Inst Approaches. Bit silly, as with Eastbourne, for the venue to be in clear good weather, and the Reds stuck above cloud / unable to get down. The routes / timings are planned well ahead. A VMC transit below, with IMC a backup option, will see the greatest number of displays made.

Any GA pilot concerned for their safety has the NOTAMs to keep well clear - the timings/routes are well laid out (when compared to most NOTAMs). Either avoid laterally, timing, or >3000'.

360K would be minimum sensible to fly a Hawk at these sort of levels, less than that formation becomes difficult, and options after a birdstrike / surge fairly limited.

but I wish they would stop transiting at 2000ft at high speed on days when the sky if full of GA

Well, I suppose we could restrict Red Arrow displays to winter / midweek only

Why do Red Arrows displays get an RA(T) and civilian displays do not? Is it just because the military are more important people who sound impressively cross on the radio?

Maybe read the NOTAMs one day...

B) FROM: 10/08/12 12:00C) TO: 10/08/15 17:00
E) RESTRICTED AREA TEMPORARY FOR EASTBOURNE AIRSHOW AIC M 46/2010
REFERS. RESTRICTION OF FLYING REGULATIONS MADE UNDER ARTICLE 161 OF
ANO 2009 (MIL ACFT SHOULD COMPLY WITH JSP552 201.135.9). NO ACFT IS
TO FLY WI AREA BOUNDED BY STRAIGHT LINES JOINING 504211N
0001738E-504706N 0002333E-504955N 0001724E-504512N 0001133E-504211N
0001738E UNLESS FLYING WITH THE PRIOR PERMISSION OF EASTBOURNE
AIRSHOW FLYING DISPLAY DIRECTOR.
SEE SEPARATE NOTAM FOR RED ARROWS DISPLAYS AND THEIR
ASSOCIATED RESTRICTED AREA (TEMPORARY) ON 12, 13 AND 14 AUG.
110-08-0013 AS 6LOWER: SFC
UPPER: 5500FT AMSL

Seems to apply to more than just the Reds

NoD