Keeping the wings level in a stall
Moderator
Thread Starter
PAT, got it, thanks! More acronyms... They seem to be somewhat different on each side of the Atlantic, as there are many in PPRuNe which are just a mystery to me.
Having taken up the rudder only issue with my well respected local flying instructor today, she informas me that she would like her students to lead with the rudder, simply so as to not forget to use it. She does not teach or endorse rudder only, or deliberate uncoordinated flight at any point near the stall though.
To me, the mystery of why instruction is given, which apparently conflicts with the certification requirements of the aircraft, continues....
Having taken up the rudder only issue with my well respected local flying instructor today, she informas me that she would like her students to lead with the rudder, simply so as to not forget to use it. She does not teach or endorse rudder only, or deliberate uncoordinated flight at any point near the stall though.
To me, the mystery of why instruction is given, which apparently conflicts with the certification requirements of the aircraft, continues....
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Right here
Age: 50
Posts: 420
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the part that if a wing drops uncontrollably, trying to raise it is not the ideal thing to do! 
Recover from the stall first, then level the wings.
But if one does try to do it the other way around, at least merely trying recover from moderate bank while in a stall (rather than trying to arrest an uncontrollable roll), in a modern certified aircraft, one would generally find ailerons to be effective. A spin would not normally result. That does not mean one should do it; it just means that if one does anyway, for example due to not realizing one is in a stall, in a modern aircraft one should not end up killing oneself.
If one is flying something old or uncertified on the other hand and tries that...
Recover from the stall first, then level the wings.But if one does try to do it the other way around, at least merely trying recover from moderate bank while in a stall (rather than trying to arrest an uncontrollable roll), in a modern certified aircraft, one would generally find ailerons to be effective. A spin would not normally result. That does not mean one should do it; it just means that if one does anyway, for example due to not realizing one is in a stall, in a modern aircraft one should not end up killing oneself.
If one is flying something old or uncertified on the other hand and tries that...
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: London UK
Posts: 517
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...one would generally find ailerons to be effective...
And if only rudder turns out to work, then you have that covered too...
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hello DAR,
Glad to see you are up trying out your plane in different flight modes. I used to own a 150 and they are probably the most underated plane out there. They really are a great machine in my opinion. Try doing a falling leaf.
What you do is get a lot of altitude... put the plane in a nice gentle stall. Keep the yoke back, all the way, and dial in a bit throttle. About 1800 rpm. Then as it wants to drop a wing use rudder to keep it up but... over rudder to make it bank even more the opposite way. In other words it will drop the left wing give it full right rudder and allow it to bank untill you are at least as far to the right as you were to the left. Repeat until you are ready to recover.
It is a great co-ordination exercise all though it would not be considered aerobatics it requires a lot more skill than looping or rolling!
Glad to see you are up trying out your plane in different flight modes.
I used to own a 150 and they are probably the most underated plane out there. They really are a great machine in my opinion. Try doing a falling leaf. What you do is get a lot of altitude... put the plane in a nice gentle stall. Keep the yoke back, all the way, and dial in a bit throttle. About 1800 rpm. Then as it wants to drop a wing use rudder to keep it up but... over rudder to make it bank even more the opposite way. In other words it will drop the left wing give it full right rudder and allow it to bank untill you are at least as far to the right as you were to the left. Repeat until you are ready to recover.
It is a great co-ordination exercise all though it would not be considered aerobatics it requires a lot more skill than looping or rolling!
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Alberta Canada
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
IO 540,
Your keening for the characteristics of the certified AC is the opposite of the EAA homebuilding movement. If you enjoy dull, lethargic, glacial control response stick with over twisted, stall stripped, parachute equiped, nose dragging crap they are churning out now.
You probably would not venture forth without your GPS batteries being fully charged either. It is no wonder Canada had so many Aces in WW1.
Your keening for the characteristics of the certified AC is the opposite of the EAA homebuilding movement. If you enjoy dull, lethargic, glacial control response stick with over twisted, stall stripped, parachute equiped, nose dragging crap they are churning out now.
You probably would not venture forth without your GPS batteries being fully charged either. It is no wonder Canada had so many Aces in WW1.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 1
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
First, there isn't a "perfect" hammerhead... ask any FAI/IAC aerobatic judge. Second, from a botched hammerhead, the Pitts will most likely end up in a left pedal inverted spin... however, that depends on what the pilot is doing with his feet.
Hint... a Pitts will sustain an inverted spin in either direction.
Hint... a Pitts will sustain an inverted spin in either direction.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ontario Canada Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
See POH
Do HASELL
Power off stall-throttle idle
Keep wings level to prevent wing drop and possible autorotatation. Use AI, wing tips and their relation to horizon. Keep coordinated(ball), pitch up. Use of Ailerons may cause wing drop. Use opposite rudder to catch wing drop. When stall occurs -recover-relieve backpressure on yoke/stick, full power on carb heat off.
As we all know relative AOA is the cause. However several control inputs are warranted individually or sequentially depending on type of stall ie: assending banked stall etc.
Do HASELL
Power off stall-throttle idle
Keep wings level to prevent wing drop and possible autorotatation. Use AI, wing tips and their relation to horizon. Keep coordinated(ball), pitch up. Use of Ailerons may cause wing drop. Use opposite rudder to catch wing drop. When stall occurs -recover-relieve backpressure on yoke/stick, full power on carb heat off.
As we all know relative AOA is the cause. However several control inputs are warranted individually or sequentially depending on type of stall ie: assending banked stall etc.
Moderator
Thread Starter
How will we
if we are
?
This is the heart of my original question; where does an authoritative document say this? It is a design requirement for certified aircraft that "normal" [co-ordinated] use of the controls are applied for control of roll up to the point of the stall. It is not a design requirement that rudder be used, or be able to be used, to the exclusion of the ailerons, to controll roll up to the stall.
During a recent flight with a flying instructor in my C-150, I demonstrated that rudder (and I have the taller rudder, later model fin) is not adequate to arrest or recover a roll off of more than 10 degrees during the approach to a stall. She seemed suprized, and I felt her checking to see that I did have full rudder applied - I did, and it was still rolling off uncontrollably, with my holding the ailerons rigidly neutral.
Keep coordinated(ball),
Use opposite rudder to catch wing drop
Use of Ailerons may cause wing drop.
During a recent flight with a flying instructor in my C-150, I demonstrated that rudder (and I have the taller rudder, later model fin) is not adequate to arrest or recover a roll off of more than 10 degrees during the approach to a stall. She seemed suprized, and I felt her checking to see that I did have full rudder applied - I did, and it was still rolling off uncontrollably, with my holding the ailerons rigidly neutral.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ontario Canada Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So this 150 will not, with coordinated controls pitch up with power off and stall with wings level with the world at high AOA then nose over gently with wings still level but with a lower AOA?
Apologies but just trying to understand so I may give feedback.
Apologies but just trying to understand so I may give feedback.
Moderator
Thread Starter
This 150 will, with co-ordinated use of controls, stall wings level very nicely. This will, of course involve the use of ailerons right up to the stall to keep the wings level.
Even without a lot of roll & yaw control input, it will generally stall and pitch down with the wings fairly level. If the stall is done with some power, and/or there is turbulent air, dropping a wing a little is not unusual. I have found this to be the case with many aircraft I have stalled. Some drop a wing a little (a few a lot!) during a stall, and some control input is needed during the approach to stall to keep wings level, and ball centered.
There is an understood "normal" use of controls, in harmony, and co-ordinated. I do not agree that there comes a point during the approach to stall when controls should no longer used "normally", and skidding becomes appropriate.
Even without a lot of roll & yaw control input, it will generally stall and pitch down with the wings fairly level. If the stall is done with some power, and/or there is turbulent air, dropping a wing a little is not unusual. I have found this to be the case with many aircraft I have stalled. Some drop a wing a little (a few a lot!) during a stall, and some control input is needed during the approach to stall to keep wings level, and ball centered.
There is an understood "normal" use of controls, in harmony, and co-ordinated. I do not agree that there comes a point during the approach to stall when controls should no longer used "normally", and skidding becomes appropriate.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ontario Canada Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience basically same as yours except in a 152. Aileron full deflections mostly seem ineffective close to the stall point although I have seen wing slowly start drop with ailerons.
Anyway, good thread and responses.
Anyway, good thread and responses.
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Ontario Canada Gulf Coast USA
Posts: 46
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience basically same as yours except mine was in a 152. Aileron full deflections mostly seem ineffective close to the stall point although I have seen wing slowly start a drop with ailerons.
Anyway, good thread and responses.
Anyway, good thread and responses.
