Engine Failure
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I'v emuch enjoyed the textual ping pong and so cannot resist joining in - a little.
With a thousand hours (all of which I have paid for!) I have had 2 partial engine failures.
The first was climbing out and the options looked pretty limited. Thankfully as the nose went down to 'best glide' speed the fuel supply refilled the carb and with a series of climbs and glides I got to 1500 ft and this allowed a sensible circuit to be flown. Mechanical fuel pump unable to pull fuel from a low tank.
In that case 'instinct' kicked in and I simply flew the aircraft.
The second time a cylinder head on the Gipsy cracked and meant the engine started to shake the aircraft to bits. In this case I did suffer from a ' is this really happening', 'surely not' period when to be honest I was well behind the aircraft. Even after sorting myself out and finding a power setting which almost maintained height I found myself in a state of disbelief. My immaculately maintained engine could not be doing this etc...
But to be fair it kept going long enough to take me out of the mountains and to a large military runway (gently descending all the way).
But Guppy's comments about disbelief and lack of preparededness do really strike a chord with me.
That incident really did change my mental model - to the point that when my ANR headset battery gave out recently I already had a field, high key and circuit, carb heat and fuel selection sorted out before I noticed what had caused the big increase in noise.....
With a thousand hours (all of which I have paid for!) I have had 2 partial engine failures.
The first was climbing out and the options looked pretty limited. Thankfully as the nose went down to 'best glide' speed the fuel supply refilled the carb and with a series of climbs and glides I got to 1500 ft and this allowed a sensible circuit to be flown. Mechanical fuel pump unable to pull fuel from a low tank.
In that case 'instinct' kicked in and I simply flew the aircraft.
The second time a cylinder head on the Gipsy cracked and meant the engine started to shake the aircraft to bits. In this case I did suffer from a ' is this really happening', 'surely not' period when to be honest I was well behind the aircraft. Even after sorting myself out and finding a power setting which almost maintained height I found myself in a state of disbelief. My immaculately maintained engine could not be doing this etc...
But to be fair it kept going long enough to take me out of the mountains and to a large military runway (gently descending all the way).
But Guppy's comments about disbelief and lack of preparededness do really strike a chord with me.
That incident really did change my mental model - to the point that when my ANR headset battery gave out recently I already had a field, high key and circuit, carb heat and fuel selection sorted out before I noticed what had caused the big increase in noise.....
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Private pilots seem to have it about their head that it won't happen to them...perhaps as professionals we're all wrong. The entire industry, is wrong, of course, because of the remote possibility that something might go wrong.
I prefer to increase my chances by running an engine in good condition, an engine that has been dynamically balanced along with prop, an engine which has been maintained properly, never run out of fuel and make sure I check the oil every time I take off. Proper engine monitoring also increases the odds. If then the engine lets go, then at least I know I have done my best to minimize the risk.
I have read numerous stories of high time pilots who have had many engine failures and one of the last i read was about a chap in his twin who's engine let go (BTW he had 10000's of hours). But as the story unfolded it appears the engines had done something like 2600 hrs and were being run on condition - which IMHO increases the chances of the engine failing.
The same goes for flight testing at night over the desert (Arizona?). IF something goes wrong, your chances of sucessful recovery are reduced. Obviously being in a corporate environment then there is more pressure on pilots to fly when maybe they don't want to.
I remember sitting at the end of the runway in the RHS of a King Air just after the heavens had opened up, staring into this biggest blackest sky you could imagine with Cb's forecast...and staring at the hole in the dash where the weather radar used to live, but had been removed for maintenance. Had I been flying myself in my aeroplane, I'd have taxied back and had a cup of tea, but we had no choice (it really was a matter of life or death)....so off we went. That was the second time in my short decade of flying that I was actually reasonably scared (bearing in mind ATC in the UK can't paint weather on the radar).
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Private pilots seem to have it about their head that it won't happen to them...perhaps as professionals we're all wrong. The entire industry, is wrong, of course, because of the remote possibility that something might go wrong.
I think the difference of perspective on this issue shown by different posters comes from the differing aviation backgrounds. For most of the serious private pilots on here their experience consists of usually flying a relatively small selection of light aircraft on quite a regular basis in a usually quite safe operating environment. The aircraft in question are usually the tried and tested GA designs that even in the case of the newer ones usually use engines that have proven reliability records established over thousands of hours of trouble free flying. For those who are lucky enough to own their own aircraft it will usually be maintained lovingly and kept in a dry hangar.
None of that means that these pilots aren't vigilant about engine failures; certainly whenever I line up on the runway in a twin engine failure is what I'm thinking about and when in the air in a single when not fiddling with the G1000 or whatever I'll be looking down at the countryside (and out for traffic as well obviously) thinking about which fields look the most inviting for a forced landing.
I sometimes fly IMC in a single and have occasionally at night as well although I wasn't very happy about it. There have been occasions, breaking out of cloud at 300ft on the ILS for example when yes, if I had had an engine failure 30 seconds earlier a safe landing may have been unlikely but by generally avoiding situations like that and being alert for the 90% of the time when a forced landing would be possible after an engine failure I believe I have reduced the risk to a level that I am happy with.
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The biggest problem is that anybody who posts here saying they don't worry about an engine failure is going to get shot down in flames.
There was even one bloke who wrote somewhere that he was "terrified" every time he flew, and he regarded this as the correct attitude, and I think many would agree.
I cannot think of anything worse. If I was terrified every time I went up I would pack it in and take up cross-stitching.
The likelihood of an engine failure with a correctly maintained and correctly managed certified engine is very very small. They do happen, which is why one cannot disregard them, and one manages the risk by carrying a life raft, avoiding large built-up areas whenever possible, flying at a high altitude whenever possible (an IR helps a great deal there), etc.
Engine management is important, but is difficult to do correctly in the typical GA rental spamcan context, because there is no or almost no engine instrumentation, so you could be running at a very high CHT and not know it. Thankfully cylinder cracks rarely stop an engine dead. An aircraft owner can install an EDM700, read up on the matter, and never look back. It is a wonderful instrument - if your headset batteries go flat you take a look at the EGTs and if they look normal ...
Fuel management is obviously vital but again is difficult to do in the GA rental spamcan context, because of crappy fuel gauges, and a long tradition in the training system of accepting previous flights' paper log entries as evidence of fuel on board (look up G-OMAR for a super example). Again, an aircraft owner can install a fuel totaliser (the existing gauges have to be left in place) and be precise to within 1% as to his fuel status. I have done 900nm flights and landed within 1 or 2 litres of the FOB which was computed during the flight. Likewise if you suspect a loss of power, take one look at the fuel flow (displayed to 0.1 litre/hr) and if that's OK and the EGTs are OK then the engine is making the power.
The above two things probably take out the majority of engine failures. As for the rest, the best thing is to avoid using UK engine shops
Now I better get off pprune because, according to DFC (oops I meant Mr Guppy) I have a 50% chance of dying today.
There was even one bloke who wrote somewhere that he was "terrified" every time he flew, and he regarded this as the correct attitude, and I think many would agree.
I cannot think of anything worse. If I was terrified every time I went up I would pack it in and take up cross-stitching.
The likelihood of an engine failure with a correctly maintained and correctly managed certified engine is very very small. They do happen, which is why one cannot disregard them, and one manages the risk by carrying a life raft, avoiding large built-up areas whenever possible, flying at a high altitude whenever possible (an IR helps a great deal there), etc.
Engine management is important, but is difficult to do correctly in the typical GA rental spamcan context, because there is no or almost no engine instrumentation, so you could be running at a very high CHT and not know it. Thankfully cylinder cracks rarely stop an engine dead. An aircraft owner can install an EDM700, read up on the matter, and never look back. It is a wonderful instrument - if your headset batteries go flat you take a look at the EGTs and if they look normal ...
Fuel management is obviously vital but again is difficult to do in the GA rental spamcan context, because of crappy fuel gauges, and a long tradition in the training system of accepting previous flights' paper log entries as evidence of fuel on board (look up G-OMAR for a super example). Again, an aircraft owner can install a fuel totaliser (the existing gauges have to be left in place) and be precise to within 1% as to his fuel status. I have done 900nm flights and landed within 1 or 2 litres of the FOB which was computed during the flight. Likewise if you suspect a loss of power, take one look at the fuel flow (displayed to 0.1 litre/hr) and if that's OK and the EGTs are OK then the engine is making the power.
The above two things probably take out the majority of engine failures. As for the rest, the best thing is to avoid using UK engine shops
Now I better get off pprune because, according to DFC (oops I meant Mr Guppy) I have a 50% chance of dying today.
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Guppy,
I find it some what unbelievable that certain people on here are determined to discredit your experience and try to make silly remarks about a very serious subject they clearly do not understand.
I do not have your level of experience yet but I also fly in very tough commercial environments where engine failure is always in the for front of my mind when flying around, nearly always at max gross and often only 500ft.
I learnt in the SE of the England, Redhill to be precise many years ago but have now operated in many countries as a commercial pilot. I now fly in a DHC2 on floats I have to contend with a low level turn after takeoff over rough land at least six times a day, if the engine decides to blow at this point I have seconds to react and that is why my mind is in failure escape mode whilst flying.
I think that a couple of the less professional hobby pilots on here think that means worrying about it all day, this is not the case it is just being very very aware and ready for the worst at all times, that means expecting it and having a plan.
I have had two partial engine failures in my time both meant an unstoppable descent rate, and it was planning and preparation that allowed me to put a bush strip between the ground and the plane in time.
Fuji,
Stop questioning Guppies experience, it is very obvious that he is exactly what he says he is and it only shows your lack of experience very very clearly that you cannot see it. You have realise that your flying environment is very undemanding and as a hobbyist you do not really have the experience and knowledge to judge people who fly for a living and really know about aviation. Oh by the way the guy who did my float rating had 34000hrs TT and 22000hrs on floats, so that kind of blows the you can't get those sort of hours in GA out the water.
Engines do fail and if you put the hours in the odds are one day it will be you as Guppy said "its not if its when".
I have not posted on pprune in months because its has so many complete plonkers on it, this will be my only post as nothing has changed.
Cheers
I find it some what unbelievable that certain people on here are determined to discredit your experience and try to make silly remarks about a very serious subject they clearly do not understand.
I do not have your level of experience yet but I also fly in very tough commercial environments where engine failure is always in the for front of my mind when flying around, nearly always at max gross and often only 500ft.
I learnt in the SE of the England, Redhill to be precise many years ago but have now operated in many countries as a commercial pilot. I now fly in a DHC2 on floats I have to contend with a low level turn after takeoff over rough land at least six times a day, if the engine decides to blow at this point I have seconds to react and that is why my mind is in failure escape mode whilst flying.
I think that a couple of the less professional hobby pilots on here think that means worrying about it all day, this is not the case it is just being very very aware and ready for the worst at all times, that means expecting it and having a plan.
I have had two partial engine failures in my time both meant an unstoppable descent rate, and it was planning and preparation that allowed me to put a bush strip between the ground and the plane in time.
Fuji,
Stop questioning Guppies experience, it is very obvious that he is exactly what he says he is and it only shows your lack of experience very very clearly that you cannot see it. You have realise that your flying environment is very undemanding and as a hobbyist you do not really have the experience and knowledge to judge people who fly for a living and really know about aviation. Oh by the way the guy who did my float rating had 34000hrs TT and 22000hrs on floats, so that kind of blows the you can't get those sort of hours in GA out the water.
Engines do fail and if you put the hours in the odds are one day it will be you as Guppy said "its not if its when".
I have not posted on pprune in months because its has so many complete plonkers on it, this will be my only post as nothing has changed.
Cheers
Last edited by Wildpilot; 9th Aug 2010 at 12:53.
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Then again, as a rule, I don't do single engine night or IFR, and my single engine mountain work generally involves operations that are done at a low enough altitude that an engine failure isn't generally expected to result in a landing. All my recent piston flying has been in environments where a forced landing is the very least of my concerns. Higher priorities were protection from small arms fire and surface to air threats.
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Higher priorities were protection from small arms fire and surface to air threats.
I am ex Spetnatz; we may have met in Afghanistan, back in 1978.
You lot were a lot better paid.
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The best thing is that in an anonymous forum we will none of us ever know who is genuine and who isn't.
If by genuine you mean someone who posts using their true name then i guess I'm genuine.
Whenever I make a statement or express an opinion I try and make sure I can back up what I say with some facts.
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All my recent piston flying has been in environments where a forced landing is the very least of my concerns. Higher priorities were protection from small arms fire and surface to air threats.
Moderator
If by genuine you mean someone who posts using their true name then i guess I'm genuine
So now you have the confirmation that whoever Pilot DAR is, I vouch for Chuck!
Chuck, that, and a few bucks will get you coffee lotsa places!
Cheers, Jim...
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Hmmn... Long ago when I flew as a flight engineer on Shackletons our Griffon engines were so over used that we expected an engine failure on every mission.
The usual failure mode was rough running / fluctuating oil pressure followed by a flailing con rod which could cut through the engine case and neatly sever the prop oil feed pipes which ran through the vee of the two banks of cylinders. This would cause the prop to go to fine pitch, overspeed and complete the engine's self destruction, which having caught fire would now be torn from the wing.
As a result Shack crews were hypersensitive about unusual engine indications, feathering the suspect engine in seconds in a flurry of hands on levers and buttons. The mark III Shackleton could only just maintain height on three engines so we would light up one of the two viper jets fitted in the ourboard nacelles in order to get us home. However when far out in the Atlantic or Artic sea the jet engine would use up all our fuel before reaching land, so we climbed, shut down the jet, gradually descended, lit up the jet, climbed....ad nauseum.
One day, flying a mark II Shack over the Irish sea, consternation reigned in my crew, because all four engines were running rough and the mark II Shack did not have two 'get us home' Viper jets. As a 22 year old junior flight eng I hadn't a clue as to what was wrong and suspected contaminated fuel. I recommended landing at the nearest airfield which turned out to be Shannon airport in the Republic of Ireland, and we being RAF nearly caused a diplomatic incident.
With hindsight perhaps that was my first taste of carb icing.
The usual failure mode was rough running / fluctuating oil pressure followed by a flailing con rod which could cut through the engine case and neatly sever the prop oil feed pipes which ran through the vee of the two banks of cylinders. This would cause the prop to go to fine pitch, overspeed and complete the engine's self destruction, which having caught fire would now be torn from the wing.
As a result Shack crews were hypersensitive about unusual engine indications, feathering the suspect engine in seconds in a flurry of hands on levers and buttons. The mark III Shackleton could only just maintain height on three engines so we would light up one of the two viper jets fitted in the ourboard nacelles in order to get us home. However when far out in the Atlantic or Artic sea the jet engine would use up all our fuel before reaching land, so we climbed, shut down the jet, gradually descended, lit up the jet, climbed....ad nauseum.
One day, flying a mark II Shack over the Irish sea, consternation reigned in my crew, because all four engines were running rough and the mark II Shack did not have two 'get us home' Viper jets. As a 22 year old junior flight eng I hadn't a clue as to what was wrong and suspected contaminated fuel. I recommended landing at the nearest airfield which turned out to be Shannon airport in the Republic of Ireland, and we being RAF nearly caused a diplomatic incident.
With hindsight perhaps that was my first taste of carb icing.
Still interested in the main topic
Maybe we should start another thread but I think is is relevant to find out peoples experience with engine failures in GA aircraft.
To develop a real picture it would be nice to know:
Total GA hours and over how many years
# Failures or suspect performance to cause a diversion
Reasons if known
Warning signs if any
Status of the plane = rental, owner operated, charter
Outcome and lessons learned?
Personally I've about 1200 hours in 9 years, 80 percent of behind an IO-540 I own with never a peep of trouble. The rest in various rentals/trainers
20driver
To develop a real picture it would be nice to know:
Total GA hours and over how many years
# Failures or suspect performance to cause a diversion
Reasons if known
Warning signs if any
Status of the plane = rental, owner operated, charter
Outcome and lessons learned?
Personally I've about 1200 hours in 9 years, 80 percent of behind an IO-540 I own with never a peep of trouble. The rest in various rentals/trainers
20driver
Last edited by 20driver; 9th Aug 2010 at 19:02.
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I accept that point Chuck, and when posting as you do anyone can look you up.
I started using my real name in these forums because I was in the advanced flight training business and by being open in my communications it served me well with my clients all over the world and it also keeps me from being a real prick sometimes when I get annoyed by some posters.
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I post on here at various times and useally on subjects that I have experience off. If I don't have anything to say on a subject I don't post but I can't help noticing that sometimes I read other threads and there are a few people that have an opinion on every subject.
It's also very obvious that there are a lot of nonuts that no nothing about the subjects that they post about and are quick to ridicule anyone else.
I agree with the above people that point out the failings of being anonomous.
For the record, and if anyone wants to check out the validity of any of my claims/statements on here , my name is John Cook, I fly out of Tibenham where I am well known and anything that I post can be verified.
I hereby challange some of the naysayers on here to be as honest as to their identity.
It's also very obvious that there are a lot of nonuts that no nothing about the subjects that they post about and are quick to ridicule anyone else.
I agree with the above people that point out the failings of being anonomous.
For the record, and if anyone wants to check out the validity of any of my claims/statements on here , my name is John Cook, I fly out of Tibenham where I am well known and anything that I post can be verified.
I hereby challange some of the naysayers on here to be as honest as to their identity.
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I was just curious Guppy to know where in the world you had been flying in a single engine piston and been concerned about small arms fire and other ground to air threats? I promise I'm not trying to wind you up, just curious.
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Dave Wilson, glider of gliders since 1989, Silver 'C', currently 'resting' while I finish a degree. Hope to be airborne again next spring. Well, let me rephrase that, I will be airborne again by next spring.
Toying with the idea of doing a PPL but feel that it's a passing phase and I'm going to spend the 6 or so grand in a share of a mighty glass ship instead.
Toying with the idea of doing a PPL but feel that it's a passing phase and I'm going to spend the 6 or so grand in a share of a mighty glass ship instead.
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Surely, you can "come out" only if you are gay?
But seriously there is a case for not writing under one's own name. Google is everywhere these days, and uses very clever methods to identify what is a person's name, and to link it to various sites. And any smart prospective employer will google on your name, and if he finds you are posting anti-business left wing views everywhere then you won't get the job.
Closer to home, it is not possible to write anything of value on a lot of aviation stuff e.g. maintenance practices, other than under a pseudonym, because the field is ridden with so much incompetence and even malpractice.
And the CAA reads these forums; that much is clear from the speed with which they have taken some things off their website after the URL appeared in the Pprune medical forum
I know of a semi-private forum where full names have recently been enforced and this coincided with a rapid drop in the contributions. To be fair, it did not help that one chap (an aviation business) joined up, didn't like some past postings, and threatened to sue some people, but if people used nicknames he might not have been able to do that. That incident taught people a lesson and I can see a lot of them dropped off after that.
Many years ago, Compuserve ran a load of forums where your full name had to match the one under which the account was billed. These forums were OK up to a point but were much less useful than anything subsequently on the internet.
Here, most regulars know each other, and many have met up, but nicknames keep the search engines from adding 2 and 2.
But seriously there is a case for not writing under one's own name. Google is everywhere these days, and uses very clever methods to identify what is a person's name, and to link it to various sites. And any smart prospective employer will google on your name, and if he finds you are posting anti-business left wing views everywhere then you won't get the job.
Closer to home, it is not possible to write anything of value on a lot of aviation stuff e.g. maintenance practices, other than under a pseudonym, because the field is ridden with so much incompetence and even malpractice.
And the CAA reads these forums; that much is clear from the speed with which they have taken some things off their website after the URL appeared in the Pprune medical forum
I know of a semi-private forum where full names have recently been enforced and this coincided with a rapid drop in the contributions. To be fair, it did not help that one chap (an aviation business) joined up, didn't like some past postings, and threatened to sue some people, but if people used nicknames he might not have been able to do that. That incident taught people a lesson and I can see a lot of them dropped off after that.
Many years ago, Compuserve ran a load of forums where your full name had to match the one under which the account was billed. These forums were OK up to a point but were much less useful than anything subsequently on the internet.
Here, most regulars know each other, and many have met up, but nicknames keep the search engines from adding 2 and 2.
Last edited by IO540; 10th Aug 2010 at 08:32.