Airmanship - a consideration

[FREDAcheck]

how long does it take you to plan the flight, etc?

A long time (except for a local flight). Flight planning is part of the fun, so I probably spend several hours planning a long flight.

[IO540]

Several hours

I won't ask how long it would take you to read the E) lines but it cannot be more than 1% of the time you spend planning a flight - surely?

[tggzzz]

Anyway I am sure you get my drift. That notam took me 37 seconds to read, and decide there is nothing of relevance except avoiding Tibenham by a few miles at least (better still fly high; extremely few microlight pilots fly above 2000ft).

But gliders frequently go significantly higher, and Tibenham is home to the Norfolk gliding club. If there's a competition on, then there will be a lot of plastic in the sky, up to cloudbase and within clouds that are sucking.

[douglas.lindsay]

IO540, it's encouraging that I'm not the only one thinking a bunch of these NOTAMS are pointless (I was worrying that I was missing something!)

FREDA, I also enjoy the planning, and it takes me a couple of hours to really do a proper job too - though like you, that's partly because I enjoy it and quite like spending a bit longer than I really have to on it. That will probably change in due course, but if it means I get 4 hours' enjoyment and only pay for 1, hey, I think that's a bonus

Edit: for "pointless", read "not that relevant to me"... oops!

[IO540]

I am sure different notam items will be relevant to different people.

Even the General Hooton notam might be relevant to somebody. Cannot possibly imagine who though - maybe somebody in ATC who is watching radar and wondering what some codes are - but surely such stuff should have instead been communicated directly to ATC units, not notamed to pilots.

Gliders... should one notam a gliding site? The site should be depicted on the map with a big G. Why notam it as well? It is Class G airspace in which everybody can fly freely. Are you going to keep a better lookout because the possibility of gliders (or microlights) has been notamed?

If you fly a helicopter at 200ft then you may be interested in a 200ft high obstacle, but then there will be so many such obstacles anyway (anything below 300ft does not need to be mapped) that you need to keep a serious lookout, so why notam any particular object?

I think the reason for most of this dross is because it is easy for various people to obtain the authority to generate notams. And they generate them, lots of them. If your job involves checking the thickness of chocolate bar wrappers then it is by definition a global-level important job and if you think there is a possibility of under-spec wrappers being sold then you will notam it.

[BackPacker]

If there's a competition on, then there will be a lot of plastic in the sky, up to cloudbase and within clouds that are sucking.

I've had that a while ago when flying to Berlin (VFR at 3000'-ish). There was a NOTAM about increased glider activity at a certain field which was at least 50km from my route. So that NOTAM went into the "garbage" department.

Turned out that their assignment for that day crossed my flight path. Actually one of their turning points happened to be one of my waypoints too. So all of a sudden I was confronted with at least 50 gliders, all at different altitudes, all crossing my flight path. Fortunately I was able to climb above the base of the clouds to remain clear but it was one of those ILAFFT moments...

My point here: why are the assignments, the actual routes that the gliders need to fly, not NOTAMed? Is it a timing issue where a NOTAM cannot be promulgated fast enough after the competition director decides on the route, or is it because they don't want to spoil the competition by releasing the route too early?

Even this would help me enormously:

E) INCREASED GLIDER ACTIVITY AT XXXX DUE TO GLIDING COMPETITION WITH 50+ GLIDERS PARTICIPATING. COMPETITION ROUTES UP TO 200 KM AWAY FROM XXXX ARE PUBLISHED EACH MORNING AT 0900LT. INCREASED GLIDER ACTIVITY CAN BE EXPECTED ON THESE ROUTES FM 1000' TO CLOUDBASE, FM 1100LT TO SUNSET. ROUTES ARE SET OUTSIDE CAS ONLY. MOST GLIDERS NOT TRANSPONDER EQUIPPED. FOR ACTUAL ROUTES CONTACT XXX INFORMATION ON YYY, CALL +XXXXXXXXXX OR [someurl].

[gpn01]

Originally Posted by BackPacker

My point here: why are the assignments, the actual routes that the gliders need to fly, not NOTAMed? Is it a timing issue where a NOTAM cannot be promulgated fast enough after the competition director decides on the route, or is it because they don't want to spoil the competition by releasing the route too early?

The final decision on what task will be flown often isn't decided until an hour (or sometimes even less) than when the gliders begin to launch. This because the Competition Director, working with the Met Man, Task Setter, airspace liaison person and anyone else in the competition organisation team, is looking to set a task that makes the best use of the weather window as it becomes available.

[IO540]

There is no way to notam that, nor should it be notamed because it is in Class G airspace.

[englishal]

To be fair to the gliding competitions, last summer when there was a major competition on I subscribed to their daily email and got the charts emailed through on a daily basis which was very helpful.

[thing]

'My point here: why are the assignments, the actual routes that the gliders need to fly, not NOTAMed?'

Gliders don't 'fly routes', they 'proceed in a general direction', which could be any direction at any given time........I've flown cross countries where I've been 10-15 miles off track desperately scratching for some lift..........and unless you're somewhere like Aboyne where people go for the wave up to 25,000 ft and more then expect gliders up to 10,000 ft at least.

[tggzzz]

why are the assignments, the actual routes that the gliders need to fly, not NOTAMed?

Because the route is not known in advance; at most the turning points will be pre-declared. In competitions the TPs are only decided on the day immediately before the competition starts - because they take account of the weather.

To see glider tracks, goto Daily Scores then clicking on any of the "tasks" will popup a log of that flight showing track and altitude. One relevant example (both height and track) from Tibenham is Flight Details

[tggzzz]

Gliders... should one notam a gliding site? The site should be depicted on the map with a big G. Why notam it as well?

Well that's true, but if it was sufficient then it wouldn't be necessary to have CAA documents line this: http://www.airproxboard.org.uk/docs/423/gab15web.pdf

Some of the incidents are hair-raising.

[IO540]

Sure, but just because these things happen doesn't mean they can be solved by publishing more stuff.

Every pilot must be capable of buying a paper map, but many (most?) are not on the internet so they will never get notams, or traditional aviation weather (they get it off BBC TV).

Like I say, Class G is Class G. Everybody has to find a way of co-existing with their neighbours. In CAS, IFR, FL150, you could close your eyes for the next few hours - even if you keep them open the chances of getting visual with another (relevant) plane is about 1%. You have to keep your eyes open so you don't fly into something big dark and nasty In Class G, there are many potential conflicts: piston GA, gliders, very occassionally even a heli straying where it shouldn't be You have the map with the big Gs on it, and ATC even tell you (sometimes) of known glider activity. But you could meet a lone-ish glider anywhere.

The Class G mid-air defences comprise of means to reduce the risk. 1) Fly above about 2000ft (eliminates nearly all piston GA, microlights, etc). 2) fly above the clouds if you can (the most effective method by far - eliminates nearly 100% of piston GA and - in the absence of mountains - 100% of gliders). 3) Fly in clouds (statistically - UK - 100% effective; eliminates some 99% of piston GA, and most if not all gliders). 4) Don't hang around the circuit (most mid-airs happen there).

If I was flying at say 1000ft, I would be dodging all kinds of traffic, constantly. I know a lot of people like to fly low, presumably for the view, but they must decide on their priorities in life. And with any surface wind, it can be damn rough down there.

If everybody had a transponder, or an ADS-B transmitter, there would be an excellent technological solution, but this is some way away, especially with gliders.

[thing]

I've always wondered why transponders aren't fitted to gliders, I think they have the weight down to about 1 kilo now don't they? Not sure what the current draw is, but modern competition gliders have panels like something out of USS Enterprise so I would imagine they could cope.

I've had several 'that was a bit close' moments, not counting other gliders of course as we tend to thermal together. Closest was a pair of Tucanos who just brushed the edge of our site at the mandatory 2,000 ft. I had just come off the cable (it was a windy day straight down the strip) They never saw me but I estimate we were about 100 metres apart on a reciprocal heading, same altitude.........

I think the problem with GA is that they spend a lot longer with their heads down, looking at maps etc, plus they get lulled into the 'I'm on radar, I'm safe' mentality. Maybe I'm wrong I don't know. I would say glider pilots spend 99.9% of their time head out. It always seemed to be me that spotted a potential conflict and me that took avoiding action whilst Joe GA carried on burrowing his hole in the sky blissfully unaware. I suppose you have to say that the vis in a glider is infinitely better than a spamcan so we're going to spot conflicts probably before the GA pilot would. But that's the name of the game. That's why we wear parachutes.........

[FlyingStone]

Originally Posted by IO540

If everybody had a transponder, or an ADS-B transmitter, there would be an excellent technological solution, but this is some way away, especially with gliders.

Technology is here and now, I've flown couple of SEP aircraft that have round transponders that would easily fit in ANY glider aircraft. What I think is the problem with gliding, the people rather spend thousands of euros on brand new GPS than buying the most simple C-mode transponder, because if they have flown 50 years without it, they can do it for the next 50 years as well.

I think they really don't have the mentality of someone with CPL or IR, who has respect for air safety and air traffic separation. Especially when you hear bragging about near collision when they were 500m away from airliner on same level. Not to mention that some of them think it isn't neccessary to advise your intention when joining traffic pattern on uncontrolled airport - sure the glider has priority, I don't mind turning away or extending the downwind, but I have to know that glider is there - I really don't like when a glider passes me from right to left 100m before me and 50 ft above. So much about safety...

[ProfChrisReed]

Technology is here and now, I've flown couple of SEP aircraft that have round transponders that would easily fit in ANY glider aircraft. What I think is the problem with gliding, the people rather spend thousands of euros on brand new GPS than buying the most simple C-mode transponder

1. It won't just fit in many, probably most gliders. Look inside one - space is extremely limited, especially in the panel. Which instrument must I throw out to make space?

2. Weight and balance is also critical, and most units are too heavy.

3. Where are the extra batteries for the power supply (no generator remember) to go?

4. In the UK, we are only allowed to fit a Mode S transponder, and there is currently only one model which is remotely possible in terms of weight and power consumption.

5. Under EASA rules we can only fit a transponder in accordance with the manufacturer's approved scheme. There is no such scheme for most gliders.

In my 1968 glider I happen to have space to fit 7ah worth of 12v DC power, so for me it's only the other 4 problems that make it impossible. Plus the cost, which I reckon to be around 25% of hull value.

[IO540]

Picking up just one point - transponder weight - surely that argument is nonsense, given the variation in pilot weights, and the huge increase in the average pilot weight during the certification lifespan of the average glider.

I am 77kg. 12 years ago I was 71kg. 6kg is one helluva lot of hardware; my entire KFC225 autopilot system (1 computer, 3 servos, other little bits) might weigh 6kg.

Loads of pilots are 100kg...

Under EASA rules we can only fit a transponder in accordance with the manufacturer's approved scheme. There is no such scheme for most gliders.

I genuinely don't want to start yet another 'transponder' thread but if I was flying a glider I would buy a Mode C transponder and install it, and to hell with silly rules for certified aircraft. I can legally install a Garmin 530W in my Toyota... maybe not a transponder (in the Toyota; it would be 100% legal to install but it would be illegal to make it radiate). This would make me visible to many others, and might just save my life one day. Remember: Class G is Class G.

[BackPacker]

I'm booked for another week of glider flying lessons next week at a club in the Netherlands. All their gliders have a mode-S transponder fitted. So don't tell me it can't be done because of weight, panel space, electrical requirements or certification issues.

I agree that there might be some types of (older) gliders for which one or two of the problems you mentioned may be insurmountable, but that's certainly not the case across the entire fleet.

But the main issue I have to agree about is the cost/benefit issue. You can get an old wooden glider (in good condition) for less than 10 grand. Spending 2 grand or more on a transponder installation is a lot of money then. But how often do these old wooden gliders really leave the vicinity of the glider site? I'm not too worried about them flying around without transponders. It's the high performance gliders that fly competitions all over the place, sometimes in dense packs, that I'm worried about.

[Jan Olieslagers]

Remember: Class G is Class G.

Sorry Peter, but I'm slow in the uptake tonight. Your quote could be read as either
"whatever we do to be more visible, we should continue to beware"
or
"we can never contribute too much to our visibility"
For as little as I have learned, I could heartily subscribe the first, but have concerns about the second, weight not the least as I fly ultralights, where every extra pound is at least an ounce too much.

[IO540]

By "Class G is Class G" I simply mean that nobody controls who goes there, and everybody in there has an equal right to be there, anywhere, anytime.

So criticising somebody for not reading a notam about gliding activity (or perhaps reading it and disregarding it) is meaningless, because those gliders could just as easily be 50nm away from the notamed spot, and they are just as entitled to be there as in the original place.

Same with notams of military aircraft. You could meet these anywhere, anytime.

One may as well notam a flight by a PPL student, on the grounds that his cockpit workload will be higher so his lookout may be not as good. Actually I better not give people any ideas

Not everybody likes Class G. Some pilots prefer to fly in CAS, for the extra protection they get. But I think G is very valuable and makes flying very easy in the UK, and anyway it suits the UK "user pays" system because there is no guaranteed service provided, which saves NATS a load of money.