"Dear Backpacker" letter from the CAA

[BackPacker]

I got a letter from the CAA that my license is up for renewal this november.

The letter start with:

Your JAR PPL(A) license will expire on [date]. At this stage you have the option if you have not already done so, to convert to a JAR license [...]

(my bold)

This is then followed by a paragraph about the requirements to convert to a JAR license and the consequences of such a conversion. Plus an overview of conversion costs. Plus all the forms required to do a UK national to JAR-FCL license.

To the best of my knowledge, I was already issued a JAR-FCL PPL at my initial application, almost five years ago. It also says so in the poo brown booklet.

Is the CAA simply mistaken and have they used the wrong cover letter template in their mail merge, or is there something I should know about?

And a related question: I haven't sorted my LPE yet. Does it make sense (ie. does it save money) if I do my license renewal simultaneously with the sending of the LPE forms?

[englishal]

Yes I had the same thing earlier this year which confused the heck out of me. Just ignore it and send them the £70 odd fee (or is it £130? I forget).

[bambuko]

Well, I am glad I am not the only one ...
I got mine few days ago and for a minute they had me worried as well

[Gertrude the Wombat]

When are they going to catch up with those of us who have real licences ... I seem to remember rumours that they would do one day?

[BillieBob]

When are they going to catch up with those of us who have real licences

If by that you mean UK national licences, in April 2012 when, with the adoption of the EASA Implementing Rules, only licences issued in accordance with EASA requirements will be valid. Licences issued in accordance with JAR-FCL are deemed to be issued in accordance with EASA, national licences are not.

You have a simple choice - convert to a JAA licence before EASA implementation, in which case the transition is seamless, or don't, in which case your national licence becomes invalid and, as things stand, you will have to pass the relevant licensing exams and skill tests to obtain an EASA licence

[robin]

You have a simple choice - convert to a JAA licence before EASA implementation, in which case the transition is seamless, or don't, in which case your national licence becomes invalid

... and pay a fee and 5 year renewal.

I have a lifetime PPL issued by the CAA. As I read it, they can terminate this at any time, but should they?

It should be grandfathered across but of course that would be too simple for our CAA. They want UK PPL holders to demonstrate radnav skills or else we get an NPPL

[FlyingStone]

Originally Posted by robin

They want UK PPL holders to demonstrate radnav skills or else we get an NPPL

I've always wondered why people involved in aviation are so tired of demonstrating minimum skill every year or two? What do you have to loose by booking a flight with examiner and demonstrate basic radio-nav skills? I'm pretty sure you can renew SEP rating in the same flight and since you don't have to convert your license for two more years, I'm positive your current SEP will lapse by then and therefore you would have to renew it anyway. And I really can't see how any flight with an examiner would have anything but positive effect on the examinee's part?

In my opinion, national licences should be withdrawn (when EASA Part-FCL comes into effect), since they only add to the confusion. Isn't it more simple to have one standards, one sets of rules and one licence (say JAA/EASA) so that everyone flying in the airspace we all fly in is subjected (in theory of course) to the same minimum flight safety standards? Or are you so emotionaly attached to your old licence and unable to accept any kind of development?

[Mike Cross]

Isn't it more simple to have one standards, one sets of rules and one licence (say JAA/EASA) so that everyone flying in the airspace we all fly in is subjected (in theory of course) to the same minimum flight safety standards?

An excellent suggestion, but why stop at EASA? Perhaps we should invent a United Nations body established by international treaty to draw up Standards and Recommended Practices. We could give it a snappy title, say the "International Civil Aviation Organisation." Then States could issue licences that comply with the standards.

Presumably your grand idea for world domination would involve banning non-EASA licence holders from EASA airspace and similarly banning EASA licence holders from non-EASA airspace as well as an end to mutual licence recognition on order to facilitate your laudable objective of ensuring "that everyone flying in the airspace we all fly in is subjected (in theory of course) to the same minimum flight safety standards?"

[411A]

Move to the USA and obtain an FAA license.
It never expires and it has no 'renewal fees'.

How do you keep it current, for actual flying?
I hour with a flight instructor, every two years.

Simple.

[BillieBob]

It should be grandfathered across but of course that would be too simple for our CAA.

The UK CAA has no say in the matter; the decision has been taken elsewhere in Europe, predominantly by bureaucrats and lawyers, and will be imposed by EU law. Like so much of the cr@p that comes out of Europe, there is no safety case to support it, no logical justification for its introduction and no right of appeal against it. Welcome to the brave new world.

[Fuji Abound]

I have a lifetime PPL issued by the CAA. As I read it, they can terminate this at any time, but should they?

So do I.

There has been enough comment that they can and will be terminated with EASA. There has been an equal amount of comment that they wouldnt dare lest the legal actions, if not only from PPLs but from commercial pilots.

It will be a very hot chestnut. There are some powerful unions involved who would take on the Regulator and they have money to spend on behalf of their members.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

You have a simple choice - convert to a JAA licence before EASA implementation, in which case the transition is seamless, or don't, in which case your national licence becomes invalid and, as things stand, you will have to pass the relevant licensing exams and skill tests to obtain an EASA licence

First I've heard of this. Were the CAA thinking of writing and telling me about this any time soon?

They want UK PPL holders to demonstrate radnav skills or else we get an NPPL

I assume one can "demonstrate radnav skills" by getting an IMCr? (I'm having to guess and assume here because the CAA haven't told me anything.)

[x933]

I've had a similar experience - Thursday this week I was most suprised to find an A4 envelope from the CAA on my doorstep. After the initial "what have I done" thought it seems that they are under the impression that I have a CAA license, when infact 5yrs ago I was issued with a JAA license. No worries, I knew it was up for renewal. I'll just send it off for renewal less the cost of an envelope and postage seen as what they told me was incorrect

[Whopity]

Were the CAA thinking of writing and telling me about this any time soon?

No, it appears to be current policy not to inform anyone. Its European Regulation, and its up to you to find out and comply.

There are some powerful unions involved who would take on the Regulator and they have money to spend on behalf of their members.

Then why aren't they lobbying their Euro MPs and the UK government to try and stop this process before its approved?

[tinpilot]

Gertrude,
The transition process hasn't been published yet, so BillieBob and Robin are summarising bits of LASORS, section A10:

Note: Legislation currently under development within the European Union will require all UK national licences to be converted to the European Part FCL equivalent by a date that has yet to be decided but is likely to be within the next four years. Licences issued under JAR-FCL will be deemed to be European licences and no conversion will be necessary. However, UK national licence holders may have to meet additional requirements to convert to the European licence. It is therefore in a pilot's best interest to
consider conversion of a UK national licence which has a JAR-FCL equivalent to the JAR-FCL equivalent prior to the introduction of new requirements under EU Regulation."

As the CAA > JAR licence is an established current process, your local friendly CFI should be able to explain what is required for him to sign your logbook.

FlyingStone,
You are confusing licence with rating. I, and many others, have a licence valid for life so long as my ratings are current. I think the two year rating renewal process is a little childish, but I go along with it. There has been no measurable improvement in accident rates since it was introduced but, as you imply, it's not a bad idea to fly with an instructor every now and then.

The requirement to renew a licence every 5 years has no safety benefit whatsoever. It is purely a paperwork exercise, designed to keep paper-shufflers in employment and to keep the money rolling in to pay them. This sort of naked self aggrandisement is why people hold eurocrats and politicians in such contempt.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

It is therefore in a pilot's best interest to consider conversion of a UK national licence which has a JAR-FCL equivalent to the JAR-FCL equivalent prior to the introduction of new requirements under EU Regulation

Well no, actually.

It might be "in a pilot's best interest", but it might not.

You gain possible maybe ease of transition to new European licence at an unknown date, but you immediately lose

(a) the ability to fly in worse weather under a CAA PPL than a JAR PPL (not that I'd use it, but it's there)

(b) the cost and hassle of renewing licences every five years.

I simply don't have enough information at this point to be able to work out whether or not it's in my best interest to convert.

For example if the conversion process ends up being a zero cost paperwork exercise performed automatically by the CAA why would I want to do anything now?

may have to meet additional requirements

Or may not. Or if the additional requirements are simply demonstrating radio navigation ability the IMCr should count. Or who knows what else.

Sounds to me like FUD trying to con people into the pay-every-five-years regime.

[mad_jock]

Aye your right Gertrude there are quite a few fud's involved with this whole buisness

[BillieBob]

The transition process hasn't been published yet, so BillieBob and Robin are summarising bits of LASORS

No, we are not - we are quoting European Law. The requirement to hold an EASA licence and the status of national licences is established in the 'Cover Regulation' to EASA Part FCL.

Article 1
This Regulation establishes common technical requirements for:
1. the licensing, training and testing of pilots involved in the operation of aircraft referred to in Article 4(1)(b) and (c) of the Basic Regulation;
2. the certification of personnel responsible for providing flight training or flight simulation training and for assessing a pilot’s skill.

Article 3
Personnel referred to in Article 1 shall be qualified in accordance with the provisions of Annex I to this Regulation, hereon referred to as Part-FCL.

Article 4
1. Any pilot licence, including any associated ratings, certificates, authorisations and/or qualifications issued or recognised by a Member State in accordance with the JAA requirements and procedures before the entry into force of this Regulation, shall be deemed to have been issued in accordance with this Regulation.
2. By 8 April 2012, holders of national pilot licences, including any associated ratings, certificates, authorisations and/or qualifications issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1, shall have had their national licences converted into pilot licences, ratings or certificates specified in this Regulation by the competent authority of the Member State that issued the national licence.

The (largely pointless) Comment and Response process on Annex I to the Regulation (Part FCL) has now finished and EASA are currently formulating their 'Opinion' to be submitted to the European Commission later this year. It is now too late to propose any changes.

Any UK national (or other ICAO) licences that have not been converted by 8 April 2012 will not be valid for use in EASA aircraft (i.e. those with an EASA C of A). The UK CAA do not see it as their responsibility to keep the industry informed as they did prior to the implementation of JAR-FCL. As Whopity has said, it seems to be that, in their opinion, it is up to individual pilots to make themselves aware of the changing law and how it affects them, the CAA's job is simply to enforce it.

[Mike Cross]

Mmmmm.........

[pedant]

The requirement to hold an EASA licence and the status of national licences is established in the 'Basic Regulation' (Regulation (EC) 218/2008), which is already in force.

Seems funny to me that it should be enshrined in

COMMISSION REGULATION (EC) No 218/2008
of 11 March 2008
amending the representative prices and additional duties for the import of certain products in the sugar sector fixed by Regulation (EC) No 1109/2007 for the 2007/08 marketing year

Still I'm sure you're right.
source
[/pedant]

[BillieBob]

Ooops, slip of the finger - try 216/2008 of 20 February 2008. Previous post amended.