Tampa C172 Incident
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NW UK
Age: 47
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tampa C172 Incident
I've just seen something on BBC News24 about a 15-year-old (!!!) who had taken a C172 without authorisation colliding with a skyscraper in Tampa, Florida - apparently no injuries but they didn't say anything about the teenager. Looked quite a mess, but I suppose it's possible he came out of it alive...
<img src="frown.gif" border="0"> More than a little worrying, and raises quite a number of questions. Anyone have any more info?
AB
<img src="frown.gif" border="0"> More than a little worrying, and raises quite a number of questions. Anyone have any more info?
AB
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 349
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Poor kid died, no one else hurt. The TV has the tail sticking out of a 40 storey office block. Apparently he took the plane up unauthorised, ignored calls to return, got chased by a coastguard helo and hit the building.
Apart from the tragedy of it all, this isn't what US GA needs just now.
Apart from the tragedy of it all, this isn't what US GA needs just now.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree, poor kid, but also agree, not at all good for GA.
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/05/tampa.crash/index.html" target="_blank">report</a>
LF
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/05/tampa.crash/index.html" target="_blank">report</a>
LF
<img src="frown.gif" border="0">
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK East
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You guys got it to a T. He ignored radio calls, not to mention the helicopter that intercepted his plane. They had even sent out 2 F-15's for the guy! I do feel it for his family <img src="frown.gif" border="0"> Really, I do.
CNN.com said he was a ninth grader. If I'm right, he's pretty old for a ninth grader. UK-US equivalent year groups are ours (e.g year 11..15 year olds) minus 1 to get thiers (10th grade..15 year olds). He must have been put back a year if they're correct about his grade. Then again if they're right, it kinda sheds light on reasons why he did it...i.e he maybe wasn't smart enough not to.
CNN.com said he was a ninth grader. If I'm right, he's pretty old for a ninth grader. UK-US equivalent year groups are ours (e.g year 11..15 year olds) minus 1 to get thiers (10th grade..15 year olds). He must have been put back a year if they're correct about his grade. Then again if they're right, it kinda sheds light on reasons why he did it...i.e he maybe wasn't smart enough not to.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NW UK
Age: 47
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Shame to hear that the kid died... <img src="frown.gif" border="0">
On the subject of the effect on GA, I was initially a little worried that it might have more far-reaching effects than just in the US. Any opinions?
On the subject of the effect on GA, I was initially a little worried that it might have more far-reaching effects than just in the US. Any opinions?
The Original Whirly
Join Date: Feb 1999
Location: Belper, Derbyshire, UK
Posts: 4,326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just seen on the BBC news that he left a suicide note expressing support for Osama bin Laden. <img src="eek.gif" border="0">
[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]</p>
[ 06 January 2002: Message edited by: Whirlybird ]</p>
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 506
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Osama note link here <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/americas/newsid_1746000/1746192.stm" target="_blank">bbc news</a>
AeroBatfink As you say, it's just one more nail and all that. GA in itself, I believe, can't be stopped - someone has to learn how to fly the big 'uns - but, we are a small band, both here and in the US per capita. Recreational GA though, may face more and more negative (in our opinion) regulation sooner than we may like. Noise has in recent history been the big issue of the day, but unfortunately we live in a time where people love to grasp any ounce of Paranoia in a vain attempt to satisfy misguided self indulgent crusadism ( I don't even believe that is a word - but then again I am having a self indulgent rant after all <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )
Be it a child or madman, it was really only a matter of time until someone copied September 11 in a light A/C. Now it's done, I hope it won't happen again. Let's just hope the general public don't try to hang us out to dry in revenge.
We are going to be under attack more and more over the next few years. Septemeber 11 aside, I believe French Authorities are discussing banning GA flights at weekends. The German Government has already implemented restrictions. Lets enjoy the freedom we now have and maybe it's time to try and band together more in this country to save our pastime.
Rant over.
LF
AeroBatfink As you say, it's just one more nail and all that. GA in itself, I believe, can't be stopped - someone has to learn how to fly the big 'uns - but, we are a small band, both here and in the US per capita. Recreational GA though, may face more and more negative (in our opinion) regulation sooner than we may like. Noise has in recent history been the big issue of the day, but unfortunately we live in a time where people love to grasp any ounce of Paranoia in a vain attempt to satisfy misguided self indulgent crusadism ( I don't even believe that is a word - but then again I am having a self indulgent rant after all <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> )
Be it a child or madman, it was really only a matter of time until someone copied September 11 in a light A/C. Now it's done, I hope it won't happen again. Let's just hope the general public don't try to hang us out to dry in revenge.
We are going to be under attack more and more over the next few years. Septemeber 11 aside, I believe French Authorities are discussing banning GA flights at weekends. The German Government has already implemented restrictions. Lets enjoy the freedom we now have and maybe it's time to try and band together more in this country to save our pastime.
Rant over.
LF
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Dorchester, Dorset
Posts: 293
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Actually, this incident might have done a GA a favour. The abiding image I'll take out of it is of a flimsy looking contraption which looks like it only just managed to break the window.
It wasn't any threat to the building, and it looks like it wasn't.
Steve R
It wasn't any threat to the building, and it looks like it wasn't.
Steve R
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Among the clouds
Posts: 221
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It's not 'poor kid' at all! A note has been found from the 15 yo saying that he agreed with Bin Laden and this crash appears to be in support of that nut bars actions. The world, thankfully, is down one more fruitcake.
Here's hoping this NEVER happens again.
Here's hoping this NEVER happens again.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree.....no 'poor kid' involved. He's another one of these f**ked up stupid brainwashed kids, the sort who would blow 20 of his class mates away with a machine gun.
I'm sorry to say that the world is better off with out him, and I'm just glad no innocent third party was injured or killed due to his stupid actions. I'm sorry for his family, but I think you can see something lacking in his up-bringing, that he would go out and do a thing like this.
I'm sorry to say that the world is better off with out him, and I'm just glad no innocent third party was injured or killed due to his stupid actions. I'm sorry for his family, but I think you can see something lacking in his up-bringing, that he would go out and do a thing like this.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: NW UK
Age: 47
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
englishal and bow5: I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I still believe that the death of a 15 year old kid is a waste, even if he was a misguided, "f**ked up, stupid brainwashed kid". And in addition to recognising that this act endangered peoples' lives and may do damage to the worldwide GA scene that I value so much, I also feel it is a shame that he was so mixed up that he felt compelled to end his life flying into a building.
Obviously I'm not sanctioning any actions of this sort, and of course I hope it never happens again, but maybe it would be more constructive to work towards repairing the damage done to GA and contributing towards the preventative measures, than to rant and point fingers.
Obviously I'm not sanctioning any actions of this sort, and of course I hope it never happens again, but maybe it would be more constructive to work towards repairing the damage done to GA and contributing towards the preventative measures, than to rant and point fingers.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Sunrise, Fl. U.S.A.
Posts: 467
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Rant mode on.
Well opinions vary. I wish he didn't kill himself, but survived so that I could.
Rant mode off.
The only thing that can be done for this type of incident is to control the keys to planes. School can unlock 'em when they place them on the line, Students do not require their use to go preflight, and thusly they cannot start/takeoff with authorization.
Will it keep the student who is solo qualled from running off? nope, but i'm not addressing that situ.
On a side note, more often a disturbing trend I notice (I am a FAA Safety Counselor) is that students preflight on their own (no issue with it) CFI shows up, jumps in the plane and off they go. did FI check fuel caps? Oil level? anything?
I'm sure we all can remember one time or another of starting up, and then having to remove the chock's from the main, etc.
(Of course I don't have that issue any more, as what I fly has skids at the moment.)
Other possible issue, should the bar on age be raised to prevent this? (possibly, but I don't think it will do anything).
On the issue of reactions, the media, general public and legistlators all seem to forget one thing as they enact laws and regulations to deal with a "terrorist" threat:
Terrorists don't follow the rules, laws, regs ...
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>
Well opinions vary. I wish he didn't kill himself, but survived so that I could.
Rant mode off.
The only thing that can be done for this type of incident is to control the keys to planes. School can unlock 'em when they place them on the line, Students do not require their use to go preflight, and thusly they cannot start/takeoff with authorization.
Will it keep the student who is solo qualled from running off? nope, but i'm not addressing that situ.
On a side note, more often a disturbing trend I notice (I am a FAA Safety Counselor) is that students preflight on their own (no issue with it) CFI shows up, jumps in the plane and off they go. did FI check fuel caps? Oil level? anything?
I'm sure we all can remember one time or another of starting up, and then having to remove the chock's from the main, etc.
(Of course I don't have that issue any more, as what I fly has skids at the moment.)Other possible issue, should the bar on age be raised to prevent this? (possibly, but I don't think it will do anything).
On the issue of reactions, the media, general public and legistlators all seem to forget one thing as they enact laws and regulations to deal with a "terrorist" threat:
Terrorists don't follow the rules, laws, regs ...
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: RW-1 ]</p>
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Congleton, England
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Seems to me the poor jerk may have done GA a favour. We've heard enough since 911 from the whingers who are trying to restrict GA because of the perceived "danger" to their earthbound existence. So what are the answers to the following:
1. Did the a/c penetrate the building? Barely
2. Did it cause a conflagration? Wossat
3. Did the building fall down? No
4. How many injured (apart from young dude)? None
5. Was the building occupied at the time? OK, point taken
6. Could it have been worse? Yes, but probably not much
One of the arguments the NIMBYs roll out with monotonous regularity is that aircraft fall out of the sky and crash into houses, killing or maiming all within. Now soneone has kindly demonstrated the effects of a guided light a/c impact for us, shouldn't we make full use of the facts that the consequences aren't necessarily as horrific as some would have us think.
Just a thought......
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: CirrusMe ]</p>
1. Did the a/c penetrate the building? Barely
2. Did it cause a conflagration? Wossat
3. Did the building fall down? No
4. How many injured (apart from young dude)? None
5. Was the building occupied at the time? OK, point taken
6. Could it have been worse? Yes, but probably not much
One of the arguments the NIMBYs roll out with monotonous regularity is that aircraft fall out of the sky and crash into houses, killing or maiming all within. Now soneone has kindly demonstrated the effects of a guided light a/c impact for us, shouldn't we make full use of the facts that the consequences aren't necessarily as horrific as some would have us think.
Just a thought......
<img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">
[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: CirrusMe ]</p>
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: solaris
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fully agree with CirrusMe. The relevant GA associations need to get out both in the media and on the quiet and get this message out. There will always be a few crazies.
Another point. Our anti-terrorism measures appear generally reactive. I know/hope that's only superficial and that anti-terrorist bodies do look at the other 10 ways of doing terrible things that have occured to me while typing this email and I believe have probably (guiltily) occured to many of you. We must remember that the september 11 method was a once-off, and in fact was past it's use-by date within two hours, as shown by the events on the fourth aeroplane. So while this unfortunate event with this poor deluded kid should lead to some tightening of GA security, the more important thing is to keep one's brain open and look at the big picture: that for the terrorists the targets are always available, and the issue is to control those who seek the targets. O(ff) S(oap) B(ox).
Regards, and let there be calm.
Another point. Our anti-terrorism measures appear generally reactive. I know/hope that's only superficial and that anti-terrorist bodies do look at the other 10 ways of doing terrible things that have occured to me while typing this email and I believe have probably (guiltily) occured to many of you. We must remember that the september 11 method was a once-off, and in fact was past it's use-by date within two hours, as shown by the events on the fourth aeroplane. So while this unfortunate event with this poor deluded kid should lead to some tightening of GA security, the more important thing is to keep one's brain open and look at the big picture: that for the terrorists the targets are always available, and the issue is to control those who seek the targets. O(ff) S(oap) B(ox).
Regards, and let there be calm.
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Abingdon, Oxfordshire, U.K.
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I`m with Steve, Cirrus and Flow. This demonstrates just how ineffective a light aircraft is as a weapon of destruction whether it be accidental or intentional and there is no need to restrict GA. Admittedly, were the aircraft especially prepared the results could be more serious but probably not all that much and that is a terrorist operation and cannot be controlled by saying `you must not do it.` I`m not giving away any secrets by saying that a truck would be much more effective and much easier to obtain and use.
Mike W
Mike W
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Paros, Greece
Posts: 768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I agree with the comments here that this sort of deliberate use of a light aircraft as a weapon is pretty limited in the (physical) damage it can cause.
Problem is, we're all sensible, rational sorts who can hopefully take a step back (Despite being involved) and draw a rational conclusion, while the majority of the US public probably won't have such a reasonable reaction - and if I know the media, they'll make sure of it in their usual style.
Yes, of course WE know GA isn't a threat, but I think a lot of people are simply looking for something to be afraid of...
Problem is, we're all sensible, rational sorts who can hopefully take a step back (Despite being involved) and draw a rational conclusion, while the majority of the US public probably won't have such a reasonable reaction - and if I know the media, they'll make sure of it in their usual style.
Yes, of course WE know GA isn't a threat, but I think a lot of people are simply looking for something to be afraid of...
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I flew into Tucson International today (great airport for the little guys, by the way - most of the UK's international airports could learn a lot), and as I was walking through the executive terminal, something on the tv caught my eye. It was tuned to CNN, and there was an article on how GA security would be affected.
The presenter of this article was a private pilot himself, and was talking to some official guy (can't remember exactly which one of the alphabet soup organisations he belonged to). Questions were along the line of:
Presenter: "This is the airport where I keep my airplane. The only thing that keeps the general public from the airplanes here is this 4-foot high fence. Do you think that this is sufficient?"
Official guy: "Well, to tell the truth, we could put a 20-foot electric fence with barbed wire in, and people would still be able to get to the aircraft by walking through the door. A breach of the fence was not the problem in this case."
P: "So what kind of security measures can we implement at small airports?"
OG: "The best kind of security is the 'Neigbourhood Watch' kind, which already exists at almost all small airports. Everyone knows everyone else, the guys in the tower are looking out for anything suspicious, and really there's not much more that can be done. I think everyone associated with general aviation is aware that they need to be looking for anything suspcious, and that's the best kind of security. But if someone wants to get to an airplane, they will, and there's nothing we can do to stop them"
Overall, a very good article. The reporter was obviously "one of us", and I'm not suggesting that everyone in the USA is going to take such a sensible view, but it certainly won't harm GA to have articles such as this being broadcast across the USA on a network as big as CNN.
And for a view-point from someone not connected to aviation - I was discussing this with the cab driver in Tucson, and he agreed that legislation is not the answer. We likened legislating for this kind of event with legislating that every car must be kept permanently locked in a garage to make sure that a joy-rider doesn't steal it and kill someone - it's just not possible. So overall, I think the effects on GA could have been much worse. Still, tragic that a kid should be so messed up that he'd do something like this.
FFF
---------
The presenter of this article was a private pilot himself, and was talking to some official guy (can't remember exactly which one of the alphabet soup organisations he belonged to). Questions were along the line of:
Presenter: "This is the airport where I keep my airplane. The only thing that keeps the general public from the airplanes here is this 4-foot high fence. Do you think that this is sufficient?"
Official guy: "Well, to tell the truth, we could put a 20-foot electric fence with barbed wire in, and people would still be able to get to the aircraft by walking through the door. A breach of the fence was not the problem in this case."
P: "So what kind of security measures can we implement at small airports?"
OG: "The best kind of security is the 'Neigbourhood Watch' kind, which already exists at almost all small airports. Everyone knows everyone else, the guys in the tower are looking out for anything suspicious, and really there's not much more that can be done. I think everyone associated with general aviation is aware that they need to be looking for anything suspcious, and that's the best kind of security. But if someone wants to get to an airplane, they will, and there's nothing we can do to stop them"
Overall, a very good article. The reporter was obviously "one of us", and I'm not suggesting that everyone in the USA is going to take such a sensible view, but it certainly won't harm GA to have articles such as this being broadcast across the USA on a network as big as CNN.
And for a view-point from someone not connected to aviation - I was discussing this with the cab driver in Tucson, and he agreed that legislation is not the answer. We likened legislating for this kind of event with legislating that every car must be kept permanently locked in a garage to make sure that a joy-rider doesn't steal it and kill someone - it's just not possible. So overall, I think the effects on GA could have been much worse. Still, tragic that a kid should be so messed up that he'd do something like this.
FFF
---------
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Chichester, UK
Posts: 871
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FFF
My mother-in-law lives in green valley, just south of Tuscon, so I've flown there a couple of times. Didn't realize that they allowed GA flights in - I guess that someplace that mixes F-16's from the Air National Guard, medium passenger jets and GA must be entertaining to fly from... <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: Evo7 ]</p>
My mother-in-law lives in green valley, just south of Tuscon, so I've flown there a couple of times. Didn't realize that they allowed GA flights in - I guess that someplace that mixes F-16's from the Air National Guard, medium passenger jets and GA must be entertaining to fly from... <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
[ 08 January 2002: Message edited by: Evo7 ]</p>
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: London, UK
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From The Independent newspaper (7 Jan, p.10):
"The affair has had one unintended consequence. The strict aviation security in effect since 11 September has hit operators of small planes hard, closing down some local airfields. Operators have pleaded their aircraft were too small to cause much damage. However sad, the incident in Tampa suggests they have a point."
Reassuring to see such an opinion in a mainstream publication.
"The affair has had one unintended consequence. The strict aviation security in effect since 11 September has hit operators of small planes hard, closing down some local airfields. Operators have pleaded their aircraft were too small to cause much damage. However sad, the incident in Tampa suggests they have a point."
Reassuring to see such an opinion in a mainstream publication.