Run and Breaks
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HWD,
A run and break is typically carried out this way:
A long, straight approach down final, sometimes from a few miles out, usually at high speed but can be at any altitude up to circuit height.
From the midpoint of the runway, the pilot will execute a 180 degree turn to put himself onto a midfield downwind to start a curved approach onto short final to land. Sometimes the pilot will come in low and pull up to circuit height during the turn but it can vary from that to a run AT circuit hieght and a horizontal turn onto downwind. This will sometimes be a shallow turn or a steep turn, climbing to circuit height, or horizontal at circuit height. It usually puts the pilot on a close-in downwind position at approximately midfield, so the curcuit flown is much tighter than your average circuit.
That's for a solo pilot. For a formation, the same applies but each aircraft will peel off with a set separation, usually with the first one peeling off over the approach numbers and then each subsequent aircraft on a 5 second delay. This ends up with a group of aircraft all in stream on downwind, now under their own navigation and setting themselves up for individual landings. Sometimes they'll fly extended downwinds to get the timing of the landings right.
So, having said all that, the places to look when you hear a call for a run and break are starting along the final approach out to a couple of miles, usually low (say 500 ft QFE). The run in will often be fast. Then look along the runway for aircraft executing their turns up (or across) to a close-in downwind. Then look for curved final approaches sometimes starting the decent from abeam the numbers. Rarely will the pilots fly a standard square curcuit with a run and break, so their time from downwind to final will be pretty short.
If it's a formation, the leader will usually announce how many aircraft are in the formation when they approach. Try to remember how many to expect and count them off when you see them. That way you'll know if you'll know you've got them all in sight.
Most run and breaks I've seen have been executed with due regard for local traffic patterns and other traffic in the circuit, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where that hasn't been the case.
A run and break will often be announced by a radio call something along the lines of "G-XXXX turning Initial for a Run and Break, runway 26, 30 seconds(or X miles) to run" or something close to that.
I hope that answers the question. If you want to see properly executed run and breaks, spend a couple of hours at Lakenheath's Spotters' Corner. The Eagle drivers know how to do it!
If you've got any other questions, ask and I'll try to answer them.
Cheers,
Pitts2112
A run and break is typically carried out this way:
A long, straight approach down final, sometimes from a few miles out, usually at high speed but can be at any altitude up to circuit height.
From the midpoint of the runway, the pilot will execute a 180 degree turn to put himself onto a midfield downwind to start a curved approach onto short final to land. Sometimes the pilot will come in low and pull up to circuit height during the turn but it can vary from that to a run AT circuit hieght and a horizontal turn onto downwind. This will sometimes be a shallow turn or a steep turn, climbing to circuit height, or horizontal at circuit height. It usually puts the pilot on a close-in downwind position at approximately midfield, so the curcuit flown is much tighter than your average circuit.
That's for a solo pilot. For a formation, the same applies but each aircraft will peel off with a set separation, usually with the first one peeling off over the approach numbers and then each subsequent aircraft on a 5 second delay. This ends up with a group of aircraft all in stream on downwind, now under their own navigation and setting themselves up for individual landings. Sometimes they'll fly extended downwinds to get the timing of the landings right.
So, having said all that, the places to look when you hear a call for a run and break are starting along the final approach out to a couple of miles, usually low (say 500 ft QFE). The run in will often be fast. Then look along the runway for aircraft executing their turns up (or across) to a close-in downwind. Then look for curved final approaches sometimes starting the decent from abeam the numbers. Rarely will the pilots fly a standard square curcuit with a run and break, so their time from downwind to final will be pretty short.
If it's a formation, the leader will usually announce how many aircraft are in the formation when they approach. Try to remember how many to expect and count them off when you see them. That way you'll know if you'll know you've got them all in sight.
Most run and breaks I've seen have been executed with due regard for local traffic patterns and other traffic in the circuit, but I'm sure there are plenty of examples where that hasn't been the case.
A run and break will often be announced by a radio call something along the lines of "G-XXXX turning Initial for a Run and Break, runway 26, 30 seconds(or X miles) to run" or something close to that.
I hope that answers the question. If you want to see properly executed run and breaks, spend a couple of hours at Lakenheath's Spotters' Corner. The Eagle drivers know how to do it!
If you've got any other questions, ask and I'll try to answer them.
Cheers,
Pitts2112
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Cheers Pitts,
Thanks for the very clear explanation. From your description, I have actually seen one in action. I was departing Blackbushe and had the pleasure of seening The Arrows landing at Odium in just that manner, with smoke on and all the trimmings. Each Hawk peeling off just as you have described.
That was possibly the first time I had an inkling that maybe I wouldn't be happy with just pottering around in a spammer. I was thinking the other day, as I was upsidedown in M14P's 2 seat plaything, wouldn't it be nice to learn to fly the whole envelope
Thanks for the very clear explanation. From your description, I have actually seen one in action. I was departing Blackbushe and had the pleasure of seening The Arrows landing at Odium in just that manner, with smoke on and all the trimmings. Each Hawk peeling off just as you have described.
That was possibly the first time I had an inkling that maybe I wouldn't be happy with just pottering around in a spammer. I was thinking the other day, as I was upsidedown in M14P's 2 seat plaything, wouldn't it be nice to learn to fly the whole envelope
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 12th Nov 2005 at 17:49.
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HWD,
Funny you should mention that. I still remember the day I was convinced I wanted to do real aerobatics. I was 12 and my Dad took me to see the USAF Thunderbirds fly at the local airbase. I was totally blown away and decided on that day that I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Well, that didn't work out (bad eyes and the damn Ruskies gave up!), but I got myself a Pitts as soon as possible so I could at least get some good flying in.
Have loved every minute of it!
Pitts2112
Funny you should mention that. I still remember the day I was convinced I wanted to do real aerobatics. I was 12 and my Dad took me to see the USAF Thunderbirds fly at the local airbase. I was totally blown away and decided on that day that I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Well, that didn't work out (bad eyes and the damn Ruskies gave up!), but I got myself a Pitts as soon as possible so I could at least get some good flying in.
Have loved every minute of it!
Pitts2112
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Pitts,
As I said to M14P on the way back to Popham after his aeros demonstration "You do realise you have just cost me alot of money." I couldn't even think about it yet, but looking beyond my current CPL related training, I have already spent my future earnings 
I was totally blown away and decided on that day that I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Well, that didn't work out (bad eyes and the damn Ruskies gave up!), but I got myself a Pitts as soon as possible so I could at least get some good flying in.
Last edited by High Wing Drifter; 13th Nov 2005 at 16:24.
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I was 12 and my Dad took me to see the USAF Thunderbirds fly at the local airbase
"Son, you can't do both", said Wylie senior.
Stik
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I have already spent my future earnings
When are we going to do some more upsidedowniness then?
m
There seems to be a lot of concern about "run and breaks" whereas it is a perfectly valid, safe and efficient manouevre if flown sensibly, correctly and considerately. If someone chooses to do anything incorrectly it can be dangerous.
In a modified form (flying parallel with the runway, just below circuit height, just on the deadside and turning onto a crosswind join) it's far preferable to a straight-in approach to an uncontrolled field because you can see other traffic and sequence yourself onto downwind. Straight-in approaches always seem to bu&&er-up someone on base (that should have been given way to).
Why do some people feel so strongly against the manouevre? I can understand the issue with the call "initials" because it's simply not widely understood, so I use "short final to break" instead.
Someone's bound to refer to the accident again but, as has been said several times, that does not appear to have been caused by a VRIAB.
HFD
In a modified form (flying parallel with the runway, just below circuit height, just on the deadside and turning onto a crosswind join) it's far preferable to a straight-in approach to an uncontrolled field because you can see other traffic and sequence yourself onto downwind. Straight-in approaches always seem to bu&&er-up someone on base (that should have been given way to).
Why do some people feel so strongly against the manouevre? I can understand the issue with the call "initials" because it's simply not widely understood, so I use "short final to break" instead.
Someone's bound to refer to the accident again but, as has been said several times, that does not appear to have been caused by a VRIAB.
HFD
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In a modified form (flying parallel with the runway, just below circuit height, just on the deadside and turning onto a crosswind join) it's far preferable to a straight-in approach to an uncontrolled field because you can see other traffic and sequence yourself onto downwind. Straight-in approaches always seem to bu&&er-up someone on base (that should have been given way to).
Tim
*the remaining 10% being those where CAS or activities such as para dropping get in the way!
By being slightly below circuit height you can see other traffic against the skyline rather than having to look for them against the ground.
The path flown is just the same as a high go-around so I don't understand why there would be any concern. We just need to use terminology which everyone understands.
HFD
The path flown is just the same as a high go-around so I don't understand why there would be any concern. We just need to use terminology which everyone understands.
HFD
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flown JP3 and 5a for the last 10 years or so and never seen the need to RIAB. Only time I actually did the deed was when the circuit was clear and thus, would not confuse or endanger anyone. quote " a hooligan-- but a safe one " unquote. It's just showin' off, unless you have a formation to land
Standard approachs works fine, and as far as I am aware nobody was trying to shoot me down on long finals !! although those pesky Typhoons out of Warton sometimes have me in their sights.
Standard approachs works fine, and as far as I am aware nobody was trying to shoot me down on long finals !! although those pesky Typhoons out of Warton sometimes have me in their sights.
I have flown a Nanchang CJ6 out of a busy controlled Canadian airport for many years. I started doing a R and B for two reasons.
1) It's a lot of fun
2) The CJ6 has a very draggy gear but a very low max operating speed. With a R and B you can reduce to low cruise power entering the circuit and use the the upward flight path to get to gear speed, the drag of the gear and flaps to keep the speed down on the curve back to the runway and then slowly bleed the power of on short final. This completely avoids the deadly (to radials) condition of low MP, high RPM and highish airspeeds.
After demonstrating to ATC I could accurately fly the aircraft and was not a jerk I found they were very accomodating and now they almost always give me clearance for the R and B with out me having to ask.
1) It's a lot of fun
2) The CJ6 has a very draggy gear but a very low max operating speed. With a R and B you can reduce to low cruise power entering the circuit and use the the upward flight path to get to gear speed, the drag of the gear and flaps to keep the speed down on the curve back to the runway and then slowly bleed the power of on short final. This completely avoids the deadly (to radials) condition of low MP, high RPM and highish airspeeds.
After demonstrating to ATC I could accurately fly the aircraft and was not a jerk I found they were very accomodating and now they almost always give me clearance for the R and B with out me having to ask.
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Hi guys,
I suppose I could do a run and break in my little aircraft too. The circuit would be low and tiny. Maybe I should pop in to NW one day and ask if I can do it - initial down 02, up and pirouette around the Squadron roof, and back down onto 02 grass. Whee!
madamB
'damned microlights - no discipline at all!'
I suppose I could do a run and break in my little aircraft too. The circuit would be low and tiny. Maybe I should pop in to NW one day and ask if I can do it - initial down 02, up and pirouette around the Squadron roof, and back down onto 02 grass. Whee!
madamB
'damned microlights - no discipline at all!'
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Great thread.
Only learning for PPL, but never heard of R+B before reading this thread. Now I know what it is, and will be aware, if I ever hear 'initials', to look down to the 'finals' area of the RW to spot the incoming a/c. The safety value of this can't really be underestimated.
In the thread it was pointed out that the reason for RB's was to reduce the risk of planes being shot down in WW2. Very sensible, but was that not before fast jets came along?
I'm sure I remember one of those TV docs about WW2, where an ex Mustang pilot recalled how the ME262 (have I got the type right - 1st German jet fighter?) was a 'sitting duck' on long finals, so he popped quite a few.
Obviously the ME262 was too new, or experimental, to try RB's.
Whilst from this thread, I glean that there's a solid reason for fast jets (I include JP in that) to do RB for fuel save/noise abatement, I'm not convinced of similar reasons for powerful piston a/c. Maybe to get a formation down, certainly, but for a single a/c - why bother?
Just my little opinion, which, as a student pilot is mostly BS anyway , but to reiterate, a very worthwhile thread if I'm on base/finals at a small, unfamiliar field and hear 'xxxx initials 30 secs'.
PS TJFC - like your explanations of how stall speed is increased in 'G' turns. Although some have pointed out that your wording may not be this or that, it certainly got through to me that as you pull more G (increase wing loading) then your stall IAS will increase.
Is it a reasonable analogy that, if we lived on planet Zog, and Zog had 3g as normal gravity, then we would (assuming similar atmosphere) need lots more IAS to get off the ground? If so, you're precis on stalls helped me a lot
As a student pilot, I appreciate input in a well explained manner - thanks.
Only learning for PPL, but never heard of R+B before reading this thread. Now I know what it is, and will be aware, if I ever hear 'initials', to look down to the 'finals' area of the RW to spot the incoming a/c. The safety value of this can't really be underestimated.
In the thread it was pointed out that the reason for RB's was to reduce the risk of planes being shot down in WW2. Very sensible, but was that not before fast jets came along?
I'm sure I remember one of those TV docs about WW2, where an ex Mustang pilot recalled how the ME262 (have I got the type right - 1st German jet fighter?) was a 'sitting duck' on long finals, so he popped quite a few.
Obviously the ME262 was too new, or experimental, to try RB's.
Whilst from this thread, I glean that there's a solid reason for fast jets (I include JP in that) to do RB for fuel save/noise abatement, I'm not convinced of similar reasons for powerful piston a/c. Maybe to get a formation down, certainly, but for a single a/c - why bother?
Just my little opinion, which, as a student pilot is mostly BS anyway
, but to reiterate, a very worthwhile thread if I'm on base/finals at a small, unfamiliar field and hear 'xxxx initials 30 secs'.PS TJFC - like your explanations of how stall speed is increased in 'G' turns. Although some have pointed out that your wording may not be this or that, it certainly got through to me that as you pull more G (increase wing loading) then your stall IAS will increase.
Is it a reasonable analogy that, if we lived on planet Zog, and Zog had 3g as normal gravity, then we would (assuming similar atmosphere) need lots more IAS to get off the ground? If so, you're precis on stalls helped me a lot
As a student pilot, I appreciate input in a well explained manner - thanks.
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Forget noise abatement, fuel conservation, formation landing etc.
I was taught that a run and break into the circuit is tactically the safest way to join. The airfield and immediate surrounds are the only area that you can be reasonably sure is clear of manpads (man portable air defence systems) and therefore the safest area to decelerate into and then further restrict your manoeuvrability with flap and gear.
Oh yes, and it was bloody good fun......
I was taught that a run and break into the circuit is tactically the safest way to join. The airfield and immediate surrounds are the only area that you can be reasonably sure is clear of manpads (man portable air defence systems) and therefore the safest area to decelerate into and then further restrict your manoeuvrability with flap and gear.
Oh yes, and it was bloody good fun......
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if I'm on base/finals at a small, unfamiliar field and hear 'xxxx initials 30 secs'.
Or have I misread my air law somewhere? Conforming to traffic pattern? Not overtake or cut in on final? etc.
MB
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I really have tried not to become too involved in this thread but MB's latest post has catalysed me out of my cosy stupor!
Nowhere above does it state that a/c RIAB'ing have the right of way.
Nowhere above does it state that the "initial" call immediately precedes a/c forming up on final.
The call of "initial" happens about a mile out and is to let the formation a/c, who will only be concentrating on lead's aeroplane and not their position relative to the ground, know that the RIAB is about to happen.
Unlikely as it is, as lead generally tries pretty hard to arrive with minimal disruptance to other circuit traffic, if you are on final and hear "Initial" then you can expect the RIAB aircraft to land after you. If you are on a long, high draggy final you may see the faster formation aircraft zip by you BUT they will break and extend downwind to allow you to land first.
Even if a tyro PPL stude on a solo cross-country encountered a formation RIAB at a destination, without even knowing what was going on, should he conform to the circuit as taught he should neither be alarmed nor inconvenienced.
Stik
Surely, if you're on final and somebody in a fast and noisy machine calls initial and expects you to get out of their way in half a minute, they're not only selfish and dangerous, but illegal too?
Nowhere above does it state that the "initial" call immediately precedes a/c forming up on final.
The call of "initial" happens about a mile out and is to let the formation a/c, who will only be concentrating on lead's aeroplane and not their position relative to the ground, know that the RIAB is about to happen.
Unlikely as it is, as lead generally tries pretty hard to arrive with minimal disruptance to other circuit traffic, if you are on final and hear "Initial" then you can expect the RIAB aircraft to land after you. If you are on a long, high draggy final you may see the faster formation aircraft zip by you BUT they will break and extend downwind to allow you to land first.
Even if a tyro PPL stude on a solo cross-country encountered a formation RIAB at a destination, without even knowing what was going on, should he conform to the circuit as taught he should neither be alarmed nor inconvenienced.
Stik
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Dusty B...
You don't break as a formation...so it doesn't make much difference. Normally around 2 seconds gap inbetween a/c breaking. It's just as fun in a singleton though.
No one has also mentioned that RIAB's were also established as a way to check the condition of the RWY/airfield before commiting on a long finals to land!
You don't break as a formation...so it doesn't make much difference. Normally around 2 seconds gap inbetween a/c breaking. It's just as fun in a singleton though.
No one has also mentioned that RIAB's were also established as a way to check the condition of the RWY/airfield before commiting on a long finals to land!