Radio in uncontrolled airspace
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Radio in uncontrolled airspace
Okay, here is a random issue:
Flying cross-country the UK, I can never decide who to talk to whilst VFR in uncontrolled airspace when not near enough to an aerodrome to warrant talking to them. I sort of feel like I should be talking to someone and if I've got a radio and transponder, I might as well use them.
Should I contact a LARS unit and ask for a traffic service? Or should I talk to London FIS for a basic service? Or should I just not talk to anyone?
I have on occasion spoken to London FIS...this seems to be useful for a few different reasons...they'll give me an alerting service if I go missing...squawking their code lets radar units know who i'm talking to in case I get too near their airspace...they can give useful information and can give limited information on traffic in the area. However, I've been told by a couple of people that London FIS is only there to contact if I want some specific information from them.
Most of the uncontrolled airspace in the UK is covered by a LARS, but should I talk to them?...and would they bother to give me just a basic service?
I find this quite frustrating because I can never decide who if anyone to talk to and there doesn't seem to be an accepted practice for this and nobody I've asked has been able to give a good answer.
Anybody out there have any advice on good practice?
Flying cross-country the UK, I can never decide who to talk to whilst VFR in uncontrolled airspace when not near enough to an aerodrome to warrant talking to them. I sort of feel like I should be talking to someone and if I've got a radio and transponder, I might as well use them.
Should I contact a LARS unit and ask for a traffic service? Or should I talk to London FIS for a basic service? Or should I just not talk to anyone?
I have on occasion spoken to London FIS...this seems to be useful for a few different reasons...they'll give me an alerting service if I go missing...squawking their code lets radar units know who i'm talking to in case I get too near their airspace...they can give useful information and can give limited information on traffic in the area. However, I've been told by a couple of people that London FIS is only there to contact if I want some specific information from them.
Most of the uncontrolled airspace in the UK is covered by a LARS, but should I talk to them?...and would they bother to give me just a basic service?
I find this quite frustrating because I can never decide who if anyone to talk to and there doesn't seem to be an accepted practice for this and nobody I've asked has been able to give a good answer.
Anybody out there have any advice on good practice?
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I find this quite frustrating because I can never decide who if anyone to talk to
I generally like to go for the best service available. This means, in decreasing order of preference:
1) Deconfliction Service. Not usually offered in VMC.
2) Traffic Service. Sometimes you get traffic with no "height" information - due to the other guy not squawking mode-C.
3) Basic Service, when you get that feeling that everyone around you isn't squawking mode-C.
4) London Info in areas not covered by LARS.
If there is CAS or an ATZ, I would either stay well away from its edges, or ask for a clearance to get to the other side. Better doing either of these two than to risk an infringement and get bo!!cked.
Other pilots may prefer not to talk to anyone.
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If they have radar - they are worth talking to, so LARS yes,
Anyone offering 'Basic' not worth the trouble - unless you are over the Scottish Highlands or water.
A 'busy' airfield without Class D - worth a call if you are reasonably close.
Otherwise enjoy the 'big sky'.
Anyone offering 'Basic' not worth the trouble - unless you are over the Scottish Highlands or water.
A 'busy' airfield without Class D - worth a call if you are reasonably close.
Otherwise enjoy the 'big sky'.
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My experience is that much of the time, anyone with a radar service close to you will give you a basic service and when they feel you are too far away will suggest who to freecall.
Some just get too busy. I remember Gloucester went through a phase of refusing service (very nicely) and that’s fair enough if they have urgent local issues.
The thing to remember is that it doesn’t hurt to ask - if they cannot help they are generally polite and if they are not - well, you have not lost anything by asking.
London always seem happy to offer service and its always interesting to listen to them (I have to make sure I concentrate on my flying rather than trying to picture the traffic they are dealing with over the large area that is covered)
But remember - it’s your choice - call them or don't - if you feel more comfortable calling them do so - if you want peace and quiet for a while don’t. I am sure the anti's (on both sides) will converge on the thread soon - don’t let them try to tell you that "all the world is wrong except them".
Some just get too busy. I remember Gloucester went through a phase of refusing service (very nicely) and that’s fair enough if they have urgent local issues.
The thing to remember is that it doesn’t hurt to ask - if they cannot help they are generally polite and if they are not - well, you have not lost anything by asking.
London always seem happy to offer service and its always interesting to listen to them (I have to make sure I concentrate on my flying rather than trying to picture the traffic they are dealing with over the large area that is covered)
But remember - it’s your choice - call them or don't - if you feel more comfortable calling them do so - if you want peace and quiet for a while don’t. I am sure the anti's (on both sides) will converge on the thread soon - don’t let them try to tell you that "all the world is wrong except them".
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LARS is best, ask for traffic or deconfliction, if they're busy you may only get a basic service. Failing that I'd go for a basic service from London Information. At least they'll allocate you a squawk which will tell any terminal controllers who you're talking to if they see you getting too close to their airpsace.
If you're transiting over an aerodrome call them even if you're planning to go above the ATZ - you may find out something useful about arriving or departing traffic. When clear go back to your previous unit.
If you're transiting over an aerodrome call them even if you're planning to go above the ATZ - you may find out something useful about arriving or departing traffic. When clear go back to your previous unit.
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you're supposed to be enjoying the flying - so long as you are out of the way of controlled airspace and other airfields don't talk to anybody and enjoy looking out of the window. On every occasion when VMC, not running into anybody else has been down to seeing them rather than being told about them over the radio.
Why not try turning it off? You'd be surprised by how liberating it is.
Why not try turning it off? You'd be surprised by how liberating it is.
niknak
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Anyone offering 'Basic' not worth the trouble - unless you are over the Scottish Highlands or water
Not so, it's worth talking to any radar unit - LARS or not -even if they only offer a basic service, any decent atco will always try and give you information on any other traffic in the vicinity.
Getting any other type of service from a radar unit depends very much on your height, the licensed range of radar cover of the unit, traffic levels and your ability to accept a traffic or deconfliction service.
Bear in mind that talking to London FIS or not talking to anyone is all very well, but you won't get any information on possible conflicting traffic which isn't on frequency, FIS do their best but they cover a huge area between the FISOs and can't see what is going on and they aren't as up to speed on regional/localised activities which may affect you as a radar/approach unit will be.
There are some who consider ATC to be the devil incarnate, others who love us so much they want to talk all day, personally I would advocate an radar unit over London FIS any day, purely because of what I've written above.
All I would say is, that if you aren't talking or don't want to talk to an ATC unit, leave your transponder on with mode C (or S if you are flash enough
) - it's a great help.
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you're supposed to be enjoying the flying - so long as you are out of the way of controlled airspace and other airfields don't talk to anybody and enjoy looking out of the window. On every occasion when VMC, not running into anybody else has been down to seeing them rather than being told about them over the radio.
Why not try turning it off? You'd be surprised by how liberating it is.
Why not try turning it off? You'd be surprised by how liberating it is.
Never have understood why it is that PPLs in VMC feel the need to be constantly talking to someone. Can understand when you're transiting close to airspace/airfields (but even then, don't understand why airfields are used as waypoints!).
Justification for talking to a ground unit seems to be based on a couple of principles that are somewhat flawed: (a) that the unit can be provide you with traffic information that helps with deconfliction (issue here is they only report on other traffic that they're talking to, so can't advise on traffic that isn't talking to them - and statistically I'd expect there's a lot more of the latter than the former); and (b) that it means that in the event of an engine failure/emergency landing then there'll be a good indication of your last known positiion (true, but how often do you have an engine failure?).
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out of curiosity...assuming a pilot has taken the decision not to bother talking to anyone....what happens if he/she infringes controlled airspace? aside from the controller potentially having to re-vector commercial traffic and waste a few tons of fuel, what generally happens to the guilty party?
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Dont call us
...
One may indeed just as well have a switched off radio if thinking of
calling up a certain popular airfield to the North of London some years ago
To announce your approach would have received a curt -
"No radio calls".
...
One may indeed just as well have a switched off radio if thinking of
calling up a certain popular airfield to the North of London some years ago
To announce your approach would have received a curt -
"No radio calls".
...
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Sometimes it's OK just to maintain a listening watch on frequency if you're in Class G, that way you still get traffic information and any other pertinent details. If you need to call them for whatever reason you've got the frequency already tuned in.
Smithy
Smithy
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Find a LARS map - the airfield books have one. That will give you a pretty good idea of who to talk to.
The debate about whether to speak to anyone has been going for ever.
Personally I think it can be useful to talk to units that cant provide a radar service because they can warn you of known hazards on your route (are you sure you have read all the NOTAMs, mauves, and there have been no pop up NOTAMs since you last checked), and it does enable you to form some sort of image of what other traffic is doing - of course if you dont participate you will also not enable others to form a picture of what you are doing.
Just one example; when I do aeros I will always call aeros between 3,000 and 5,000 in the vicinity of X. Now that gets called to anyone passing over X; could it avoid a collision one day, who knows but it takes me seconds to make the call so I think I will go on doing so.
The debate about whether to speak to anyone has been going for ever.
Personally I think it can be useful to talk to units that cant provide a radar service because they can warn you of known hazards on your route (are you sure you have read all the NOTAMs, mauves, and there have been no pop up NOTAMs since you last checked), and it does enable you to form some sort of image of what other traffic is doing - of course if you dont participate you will also not enable others to form a picture of what you are doing.
Just one example; when I do aeros I will always call aeros between 3,000 and 5,000 in the vicinity of X. Now that gets called to anyone passing over X; could it avoid a collision one day, who knows but it takes me seconds to make the call so I think I will go on doing so.
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In my experience, the "Basic Service" from a LARS is often much more than that, around London at least. Twice in the last few months I have been overtaken by a faster aircraft on the same track. Three-way comms made it much less stressful.
The first time, LARS had little else to do, and conditions were good, it would probably have turned out fine anyway.
The second time (in marginal VMC) LARS was very busy but we pilots figured out from our own calls what was happening and rapidly got some helpful attention, despite the "workload". Basically just a "G-XX, G-YY will pass on your right" was enough.
It isn't guaranteed (I have met an opposite track formation without a peep from ATC), but why pass up any chance of timely assistance?
I would always call.
The first time, LARS had little else to do, and conditions were good, it would probably have turned out fine anyway.
The second time (in marginal VMC) LARS was very busy but we pilots figured out from our own calls what was happening and rapidly got some helpful attention, despite the "workload". Basically just a "G-XX, G-YY will pass on your right" was enough.
It isn't guaranteed (I have met an opposite track formation without a peep from ATC), but why pass up any chance of timely assistance?
I would always call.
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why do we always want to talk to somebody? Because thats (at least I) was taught by my instructor and also it says it in the book.. "always try and talk to someone".
Point is to get at least a local QNH from the different airfields and thus you should talk to someone. Remember the phrase (hight to low down you go).
Point is to get at least a local QNH from the different airfields and thus you should talk to someone. Remember the phrase (hight to low down you go).
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Very useful link - cheers.
Just a word on service levels, rather than *who*. Lot of recommendations of taking traffic and deconfliction service. Having recently done the R/t stuff (again), it was emphasised that you might not want a deconfliction service VFR, especially on a nice (busy) day because a) you may be vectored all over the sky, b) you might not be able to accept those vectors and remain in VMC - in which case you probably shouldn't take the service.
I may be mistaken, but I believe/my understanding is that deconfliction minima are pretty stringent - same as for big tin travelling at significantly larger velocities; probably more than really necessary for the average SEP.
Just a word on service levels, rather than *who*. Lot of recommendations of taking traffic and deconfliction service. Having recently done the R/t stuff (again), it was emphasised that you might not want a deconfliction service VFR, especially on a nice (busy) day because a) you may be vectored all over the sky, b) you might not be able to accept those vectors and remain in VMC - in which case you probably shouldn't take the service.
I may be mistaken, but I believe/my understanding is that deconfliction minima are pretty stringent - same as for big tin travelling at significantly larger velocities; probably more than really necessary for the average SEP.
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Further to the last post
Deconfliction from CAP774 (Nov 2009) is
Unless you have two turbines pushing you, think very hard about asking for a deconfliction service - you need an awful lot of sky to achieve the required separation.
Deconfliction from CAP774 (Nov 2009) is
'surveillance-derived traffic information and issues headings and/or levels imed at achieving planned deconfliction minima'
Those minima are
5 NM laterally or 3,000 ft vertically and, unless the SSR code indicates that the Mode C data has been verified, don't allow the targets to merge.
or if coordinated
3 NM laterally or 1,000 ft (there are limited conditions where 500 feet is allowed)
Those minima are
5 NM laterally or 3,000 ft vertically and, unless the SSR code indicates that the Mode C data has been verified, don't allow the targets to merge.
or if coordinated
3 NM laterally or 1,000 ft (there are limited conditions where 500 feet is allowed)
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Smithy
Thats my pet hate .....and what if everyone did that??? you would get a false sense of security thinking its very quiet on the frequency today!!!
If your going to bother tuning into the frequency...in my case Scott Info 119.875 then please please give us a call......at least then I have most of your details when all hell breaks loose as the cranckshaft pop's out the bottom of the engine!!!!..The service is free and friendly, I am sure others flying over Scotland will vouch for that....
Sometimes it's OK just to maintain a listening watch on frequency if you're in Class G, that way you still get traffic information and any other pertinent details. If you need to call them for whatever reason you've got the frequency already tuned in.
If your going to bother tuning into the frequency...in my case Scott Info 119.875 then please please give us a call......at least then I have most of your details when all hell breaks loose as the cranckshaft pop's out the bottom of the engine!!!!..The service is free and friendly, I am sure others flying over Scotland will vouch for that....