Radio in uncontrolled airspace
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Airspace, even uncontrolled airspace, in the U.K. is remarkably busy!
"Lookout", on it's own is very limited.
How often have you been told about the prescence of another aircraft and not found it for quite some time?
Epecially when it's coming directly at you?
As aviators we should be encouraging the use of any means to enhance the safety aspect of our chosen hobby.
The use of radio is massively beneficial in achieving this.
If you want peace and quiet go fly across a desert!
On a similar note: why do I rarely hear aircraft calling "downwind (with intentions)"?
Or even "finals"?
So helpful when I'm joining and searching for traffic.
And another thing..... Iv'e seen other aircraft obviously using the airfield, I've called my intentions, (there is no response from the ATC) only to be greeted with silence!
A quick reply stating where you are and what you are doing is, again enormously helpful.
Having said that, I appreciate that there are Luddites out there who choose not to have a radio fitted.
But if it's fitted, please use it.
Just trying to help!
Ta.
"Lookout", on it's own is very limited.
How often have you been told about the prescence of another aircraft and not found it for quite some time?
Epecially when it's coming directly at you?
As aviators we should be encouraging the use of any means to enhance the safety aspect of our chosen hobby.
The use of radio is massively beneficial in achieving this.
If you want peace and quiet go fly across a desert!
On a similar note: why do I rarely hear aircraft calling "downwind (with intentions)"?
Or even "finals"?
So helpful when I'm joining and searching for traffic.
And another thing..... Iv'e seen other aircraft obviously using the airfield, I've called my intentions, (there is no response from the ATC) only to be greeted with silence!
A quick reply stating where you are and what you are doing is, again enormously helpful.
Having said that, I appreciate that there are Luddites out there who choose not to have a radio fitted.
But if it's fitted, please use it.
Just trying to help!
Ta.
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why do we always want to talk to somebody? Because thats (at least I) was taught by my instructor and also it says it in the book.. "always try and talk to someone".
Point is to get at least a local QNH from the different airfields and thus you should talk to someone. Remember the phrase (hight to low down you go).
Point is to get at least a local QNH from the different airfields and thus you should talk to someone. Remember the phrase (hight to low down you go).
Unless you're planning to overfly an ATZ, or land at the airfield, I'm not sure of the value of obtaining each airfield's QNH whilst your'e en-route. Keen to learn more about why this is felt to be necessary/useful, etc. though.
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That's a fair point fisbangwallop. It's something I tend to do if I'm going for a bimble just far enough beyond Approach's area of service at my home airfield, I'll have a listen on 119.87, but if I'm going any distance though I'd rather always speak to someone... usually on 119.87... which always provides an excellent and helpful service 
Smithy
Smithy
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I think the point is is that although it's desirable to talk to someone in uncontrolled airspace, you don't HAVE to. New PPLs often don't realise this. The first priority is to fly the aircraft. However good you are at RT, it distracts from both flying the aircraft and looking out. The older transponders can take up to 10 seconds to change sqwauk code. A high workload does not make for either a safe or pleasant flight.
I seldom get useful traffic information from an ATC offering a basic service. Most of the traffic in sight has NOT been brought to my attention by ATC.
That said, I often appreciate being able to talk to ATC - other times it's just noise, noise, noise and I can't even think straight.
I seldom get useful traffic information from an ATC offering a basic service. Most of the traffic in sight has NOT been brought to my attention by ATC.
That said, I often appreciate being able to talk to ATC - other times it's just noise, noise, noise and I can't even think straight.
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If you can get a Traffic service take it.
If you can talk to a LARS unit do - because even with a basic service there is a good probability that if they spot traffic they will call it.
The non-radar units? Well I included Scottish because there is less traffic and its a big rugged country, London -constant noise and little chance of any meaningful traffic awareness. Outwith the LARS areas (actually within them as well if you chose another station) there are too many potential radio stations that people can talk to to say that you will gain much situational awareness.
If you can talk to a LARS unit do - because even with a basic service there is a good probability that if they spot traffic they will call it.
The non-radar units? Well I included Scottish because there is less traffic and its a big rugged country, London -constant noise and little chance of any meaningful traffic awareness. Outwith the LARS areas (actually within them as well if you chose another station) there are too many potential radio stations that people can talk to to say that you will gain much situational awareness.
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So one is non radio in class G airspace at 3500ft.
Would anyone expect to find that their destination airfield would receive a phone call demanding their registration and failing that a call to an air traffic zone enroute ?
Would anyone expect to find that their destination airfield would receive a phone call demanding their registration and failing that a call to an air traffic zone enroute ?
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Would anyone expect to find that their destination airfield would receive a phone call demanding their registration and failing that a call to an air traffic zone enroute ?
If the ATZ is staffed by FISO or A/G, then you must have obtained information from them prior to entering.
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Ok, I'll treat that as if it is a real question.
The title of this thread gives the 'answer'. Class G is uncontrolled (ignoring sneaky TMZs), so there is no obligation to talk to ANYONE.
As discussed there is some benefit to talk to some people - but pilots need to understand who and why. And if there is a real benefit or if there are just doing it to fill the radio waves.
The title of this thread gives the 'answer'. Class G is uncontrolled (ignoring sneaky TMZs), so there is no obligation to talk to ANYONE.
As discussed there is some benefit to talk to some people - but pilots need to understand who and why. And if there is a real benefit or if there are just doing it to fill the radio waves.
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Sometimes it's not all about you.
There are rather big tubes of aluminium flying IFR outside CAS in the UK carrying 50 and more passengers that have no choice but to fly outside CAS (airways and CAS simply don't exist in certain parts of the country).
If someone non radio and non squawking gets in their way, it is a bit harsh to give airliners 90 degrees turns away from a VFR flight maybe 10,000 feet below, but unfortunately that doesn't show up with a primary return only!
Talking to ATC sometimes can help other flights, not necessarily your own.
having said that I totally understand the requirements for class G and it's quite right that pilots decide what's best for them.
There are rather big tubes of aluminium flying IFR outside CAS in the UK carrying 50 and more passengers that have no choice but to fly outside CAS (airways and CAS simply don't exist in certain parts of the country).
If someone non radio and non squawking gets in their way, it is a bit harsh to give airliners 90 degrees turns away from a VFR flight maybe 10,000 feet below, but unfortunately that doesn't show up with a primary return only!
Talking to ATC sometimes can help other flights, not necessarily your own.
having said that I totally understand the requirements for class G and it's quite right that pilots decide what's best for them.
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Yes it happened today and we were a bit surprised by the attitude of a controller who's airspace had not been infringed ; by a long way. 
Seemed irritated that the aircraft was non radio and therefore had not given a "courtesy" call even though the aircraft was in G at all times. I suppose even controllers have off days.
The same controller does seem to want to control aircraft in G - not too sure where he stands on this as lookout is the watchword.
Seemed irritated that the aircraft was non radio and therefore had not given a "courtesy" call even though the aircraft was in G at all times. I suppose even controllers have off days.
The same controller does seem to want to control aircraft in G - not too sure where he stands on this as lookout is the watchword.
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There are rather big tubes of aluminium flying IFR outside CAS in the UK carrying 50 and more passengers that have no choice but to fly outside CAS (airways and CAS simply don't exist in certain parts of the country).
Not too many at 500 feet ,miles from nearest airport,but sometimes very fast pointy things at even lower levels
Not too many at 500 feet ,miles from nearest airport,but sometimes very fast pointy things at even lower levels
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It reminds me of an exchange just this week.
The aircraft was at 1,500 under the Gatwick class D talking to no one. Yes he was entitled to be there (if not at exactly 1500 feet) and yes he was entitled to remain silent but Farnborough were unhappy and he chirped up after a few blind calls.
He probably knew what he was doing but the Gatwick director didnt as he bimbled directly under his approach. On the other hand if he had said he was transitting beneath the stub at 1,450 remaining outside CAS at least the controller could asign a squawk and feel reasonably assured he knew what he was about.
I'd rather work with the various service providers in the hope they will work with me.
The aircraft was at 1,500 under the Gatwick class D talking to no one. Yes he was entitled to be there (if not at exactly 1500 feet) and yes he was entitled to remain silent but Farnborough were unhappy and he chirped up after a few blind calls.
He probably knew what he was doing but the Gatwick director didnt as he bimbled directly under his approach. On the other hand if he had said he was transitting beneath the stub at 1,450 remaining outside CAS at least the controller could asign a squawk and feel reasonably assured he knew what he was about.
I'd rather work with the various service providers in the hope they will work with me.
I tend to agree with gasax.
Useful to at least let folk know you are around if in an area where reasonable service is possible. Scottish is almost always excellent - relatively quiet & useful.
London isgenerally far too busy to be able to cope properly and hence is little help tothe average transitting PPL. Hard to get a call in ! Confusing and distracting more often then not. Not the fault of the controllers, simpy too much trafic typically. So I'd listen only there. Up in Scottish area, talk to them every time.
Useful to at least let folk know you are around if in an area where reasonable service is possible. Scottish is almost always excellent - relatively quiet & useful.
London isgenerally far too busy to be able to cope properly and hence is little help tothe average transitting PPL. Hard to get a call in ! Confusing and distracting more often then not. Not the fault of the controllers, simpy too much trafic typically. So I'd listen only there. Up in Scottish area, talk to them every time.
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Not too many at 500 feet ,miles from nearest airport,but sometimes very fast pointy things at even lower levels
If you have called and given even just a rough idea of what height band you will be operating, it makes life much easier.
Anyway, airlines operating in class F/G are aware of the risks and it's all part of the game.
Ok, I'll treat that as if it is a real question.
The title of this thread gives the 'answer'. Class G is uncontrolled (ignoring sneaky TMZs), so there is no obligation to talk to ANYONE.
As discussed there is some benefit to talk to some people - but pilots need to understand who and why. And if there is a real benefit or if there are just doing it to fill the radio waves.
The title of this thread gives the 'answer'. Class G is uncontrolled (ignoring sneaky TMZs), so there is no obligation to talk to ANYONE.
As discussed there is some benefit to talk to some people - but pilots need to understand who and why. And if there is a real benefit or if there are just doing it to fill the radio waves.
Thread Starter
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Thanks everyone for replying. There's a lot of useful opinions from a load of different people here.
I definitely tend to side with those that say it's best to talk to someone if possible. There are far more reasons to than not to. I don't buy into the idea that somehow not talking to someone is going to make the flying more enjoyable. For me, a flight is much more enjoyable if I feel I know what's going on around me and that I'm using the equipment that I went to the trouble to have installed, to assist others in knowing what I'm up to. It's also just nice knowing there's someone somewhere that's monitoring my progress. It's amazing how things look on a radar screen.
Just one more question: Details or radar service coverage can be found here in the AIP http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-05-06.pdf
and depicted here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-01-14.pdf
So for example...Brize radar is published as having a service radius of 60nm and looks like it covers a huge area on that chart...if I give them a call anywhere within this, will they be happy to give me a LARS, or will they politely tell me to go away?
I definitely tend to side with those that say it's best to talk to someone if possible. There are far more reasons to than not to. I don't buy into the idea that somehow not talking to someone is going to make the flying more enjoyable. For me, a flight is much more enjoyable if I feel I know what's going on around me and that I'm using the equipment that I went to the trouble to have installed, to assist others in knowing what I'm up to. It's also just nice knowing there's someone somewhere that's monitoring my progress. It's amazing how things look on a radar screen.
Just one more question: Details or radar service coverage can be found here in the AIP http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-05-06.pdf
and depicted here http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadba...2010-01-14.pdf
So for example...Brize radar is published as having a service radius of 60nm and looks like it covers a huge area on that chart...if I give them a call anywhere within this, will they be happy to give me a LARS, or will they politely tell me to go away?
