IFR in the UK
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PAPI
I really dont mean to be rude, the more especially because your post suggests you have commercial experience, but I have to say I feel you are out of step with practical GA.
I regularly transit solent IFR and cant recall the last transit refusal. In fact last week I had a shock when they said no transits were being given. I made it "clear" that I really wasnt happy to descend 6,000 to scamper around the solent low level and miraculously my request was granted. I accept there are the occasional refusals but they really arent that common and more often than not because the pilot doesnt know how to reduce the risk of a refusal.
I am really not sure about this concept of keeping anyone in the loop. Chances are on any non airways four hour flight in the UK a lot of time is going to be spent in open FIR. In open FIR you may, or may not, get some sort of service from a LARS provider but I have every doubt if you end up in a field in open FIR anyone will be scrabbling the search and rescue helicopter unless you get a Mayday away.
I agree if you have filed and dont turn up at your destination in the end they will initiate an overdue action which will include a trace of your known flight (to the extent for the reasons indicated above it is known). I therefore accept that if there is a risk you will be out of radio communications with an FI provider and therefore unable to get away a Mayday a FP has it uses (for example low level over the Scottish Highlands). Personally I would prefer to tell freinds or relatives what I am planning, give them a quick call when I depart and let them know I will call when I arrive and what to do if they dont hear from me - but then thats just me.
That is the only reason I would ever file a FP for an IFR flight in the UK remaining outside airways unless anyone can provide a convincing reason why I would derive any other benefit from doing so.
I really dont mean to be rude, the more especially because your post suggests you have commercial experience, but I have to say I feel you are out of step with practical GA.
I regularly transit solent IFR and cant recall the last transit refusal. In fact last week I had a shock when they said no transits were being given. I made it "clear" that I really wasnt happy to descend 6,000 to scamper around the solent low level and miraculously my request was granted. I accept there are the occasional refusals but they really arent that common and more often than not because the pilot doesnt know how to reduce the risk of a refusal.
The reason for the fpl is to keep controlers in the loop to your location and intentions, especially in bad wx or water crossings. But I am talking a 4hr flight in a SEP.
I agree if you have filed and dont turn up at your destination in the end they will initiate an overdue action which will include a trace of your known flight (to the extent for the reasons indicated above it is known). I therefore accept that if there is a risk you will be out of radio communications with an FI provider and therefore unable to get away a Mayday a FP has it uses (for example low level over the Scottish Highlands). Personally I would prefer to tell freinds or relatives what I am planning, give them a quick call when I depart and let them know I will call when I arrive and what to do if they dont hear from me - but then thats just me.
That is the only reason I would ever file a FP for an IFR flight in the UK remaining outside airways unless anyone can provide a convincing reason why I would derive any other benefit from doing so.
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Fuji is right.
I fly IFR about a third of my time. For flights in UK I have only ever filed a written flight plan once - about nine years ago because another pilot (the TRI) wanted to try flying airways for part of the route. We never got anywhere near our requested route due to ATC reasons.
Since then I tell myself if I am going IFR and plan to fly outside airways. No-one else gets a copy of a written FP because quite frankly, no-one else gives a monkey's so I don't file one. I don't want to practice bleeding or stick pins in my own eyes. If I need an IFR crossing of Class D airspace I ask on the r/t or go around it if they sound too busy.
I fly IFR about a third of my time. For flights in UK I have only ever filed a written flight plan once - about nine years ago because another pilot (the TRI) wanted to try flying airways for part of the route. We never got anywhere near our requested route due to ATC reasons.
Since then I tell myself if I am going IFR and plan to fly outside airways. No-one else gets a copy of a written FP because quite frankly, no-one else gives a monkey's so I don't file one. I don't want to practice bleeding or stick pins in my own eyes. If I need an IFR crossing of Class D airspace I ask on the r/t or go around it if they sound too busy.
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In the UK, VFR flight plans, and IFR flight plans files below the level at which London Control is interested in handling traffic, get delivered to departure, destination, and nobody else enroute.
If you address a VFR FP to some enroute Class D unit, they will usually toss it in the bin because you are not landing there so they don't need to know. If you call them up, they will write out a strip for you (or the electronic equivalent) there and then. A prior-filed FP makes no difference to them.
It's different in say France, where all flight plans seem to go into one database which is accessible to any ATC unit.
In the UK, all flight plans go into some database from which they can be fished out if you go missing (and somebody has reported this), and they also go into some "national security" databases used for keeping tabs on traffic crossing the borders.
If you address a VFR FP to some enroute Class D unit, they will usually toss it in the bin because you are not landing there so they don't need to know. If you call them up, they will write out a strip for you (or the electronic equivalent) there and then. A prior-filed FP makes no difference to them.
It's different in say France, where all flight plans seem to go into one database which is accessible to any ATC unit.
In the UK, all flight plans go into some database from which they can be fished out if you go missing (and somebody has reported this), and they also go into some "national security" databases used for keeping tabs on traffic crossing the borders.
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Well I have been working a freq (which one escapes me - too many) and heard someone pass a flightplan over the radio. It took quite sometime and several transmissions, blocking the freq. The controller has to record all of the flight's details from endurance, equipment etc... He was not best pleased.
A - someone on an international flight that forgot/failed to file a flightplan
B - someone attempting to airfile an 'airways ifr plan' due either to worse than expected weather or ATC being unable to find the filed plan
In either event, hopefully it was an info frequency rather than a controller as that is one of the things Info is supposed to do.
The flightplan to cross some bit of Class D is just as Fuji says - quick and painless.
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Originally Posted by PAPI-74
Thames Radar 132:700 would help you too
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fuzzy,
What advantage(s) would you expect to get from a written VFR flightplan? What "management" of your flight would you like?
What advantage(s) would you expect to get from a written VFR flightplan? What "management" of your flight would you like?
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Fiji, best to let him answer himself.
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If the current shenanighans with Glasgow's attempt to get to grips with their new electronic filing, and the proposals of EASA for mandatory written flight plans even for class D transits bear fruit (consultations now closed apparently) then we are all going to be filing friggin plans whether we like it or not. Alternatively opportunistic transits of class D will simply cease, and access to huge swathes of CAS will no longer be available to VFR bimblers.
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That is the only reason I would ever file a FP for an IFR flight in the UK remaining outside airways unless anyone can provide a convincing reason why I would derive any other benefit from doing so.
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Really?
Why?
Presumably someone realised they were overdue to initiate the search? Was the delay in someone realising they were overdue, or are you suggesting they didnt know where to look?
Why?
Presumably someone realised they were overdue to initiate the search? Was the delay in someone realising they were overdue, or are you suggesting they didnt know where to look?
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It's not 'should', it's 'advisable'
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I remember a student and instructor spending 18 hours on a mountain before being rescued after a IFR flight in the Lake District-if they had filed a flight plan they would have been rescued much earlier
A "responsible person" could also be a Flight Information Unit, when an abbreviated flightplan is submitted in flight and would be more immediate and relevant.
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Yes thankyou.
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The probelm with a flight plan is keeping to it.
How many people actually fly the plan?
Lets say you route Goodwood, L2K, via LYD, level VFR, and there is a bit of weather on route. How many VFR pilots (and IFr for that matter) would give the obvious weather a miss, and then how many would duck around the low level CAS at Lewes?
The trouble in reality is many pilots do not fly to plan, and they would often be stupid to do so.
Therefore the plan may give SAR no more than an idea where to search - just ten miles left or right of track over mountains enormously increases the search area.
I agree filing should mean if you are overdue then at least overdue action will be initiated. However even that is not safe. Spend a day at my airport and see just how many times pilots are told AT does not have their flight plan (including for aircraft returning form Europe after a flight of a few hours). I hasten to add they HAD filed.
In reality there are not many areas of the UK where you will not establish two may communications for a Mayday - get the Mayday away, and make sure you always know where you are. Invest in a EPIRB, a mobile phone and a VHF handset and your done.
I know some of you are trying to come up with a really good reason for filing in the UK because that was the thrust of the earlier posts, but however much you try, there really arent any good reasons to do so, other than perhaps for those wishing to fly low level over some of the remotest parts of the UK without any other back up plan should things not go their way.
How many people actually fly the plan?
Lets say you route Goodwood, L2K, via LYD, level VFR, and there is a bit of weather on route. How many VFR pilots (and IFr for that matter) would give the obvious weather a miss, and then how many would duck around the low level CAS at Lewes?
The trouble in reality is many pilots do not fly to plan, and they would often be stupid to do so.
Therefore the plan may give SAR no more than an idea where to search - just ten miles left or right of track over mountains enormously increases the search area.
I agree filing should mean if you are overdue then at least overdue action will be initiated. However even that is not safe. Spend a day at my airport and see just how many times pilots are told AT does not have their flight plan (including for aircraft returning form Europe after a flight of a few hours). I hasten to add they HAD filed.
In reality there are not many areas of the UK where you will not establish two may communications for a Mayday - get the Mayday away, and make sure you always know where you are. Invest in a EPIRB, a mobile phone and a VHF handset and your done.
I know some of you are trying to come up with a really good reason for filing in the UK because that was the thrust of the earlier posts, but however much you try, there really arent any good reasons to do so, other than perhaps for those wishing to fly low level over some of the remotest parts of the UK without any other back up plan should things not go their way.
Having just returned from getting my IR in the USA, the apparently pre-historic state of GA IFR in the UK seems appalling from what is being said here...I don't think we had a single flight where a full radar service was not given, and an IFR flightplan is mandatory when any CAS is involved and is instantly accessible to all units, who give you handovers along the whole route.
UK IFR is starting to sound a very black art...are there any decent books that talk about UK/EU IFR for small planes?
UK IFR is starting to sound a very black art...are there any decent books that talk about UK/EU IFR for small planes?
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I know some of you are trying to come up with a really good reason for filing in the UK because that was the thrust of the earlier posts, but however much you try, there really arent any good reasons to do so, other than perhaps for those wishing to fly low level over some of the remotest parts of the UK without any other back up plan should things not go their way.