skill test
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Hello Joel
Using the word 'we' is ambiguous, who is actually going to fly the aircraft, using 'we' is like saying 'we have control'--With two pilots at the controls it is always essential to know who is in control and when, and if, the situation may change, this is very important during a skill test when the examiner may have to take the role as commander to conclude the flight
Saying, "if you encounter a problem we will come to a stop on the runway" in my opinion is a dangerous statement." I would define that as:
If we have have an engine failure, fire or problem that would render the aircraft un flyable I will stop.
For instance if the door opened on the C152 it would be a problem but we would not stop. Always consider that some problems sometimes can be dealt with more safely in the air.
You are also saying after take off you will re-land if there is a problem, again you are putting a very ambiguous potentially dangerous statement into your mind- would you really re-land for any problem? Beware of making a minor problem into a major one by misunderstanding. An off airfield landing (or re-land) is not something you should elect to do lightly.
You also state that you would only consider landing within a 30 degree area either side of the centreline-so if there was a housing estate within that area you would land in it rather than the field 45 degree to the left? I would replace your 30 degrees with "In the event of engine failure after take off I will land in the safest area available"
Also remember that the ability to turn safely through a larger angle increase with altitude.(and experience).
Its a shame that many pilots never ever consider a local brief, Eg runway length & areas to avoid after TO in the event of an EFATO or even noise abatement.
In regard to pre flight briefing, as an examiner, I expect the candidate to point out how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency, the use of the seat belts and the position of the fire extinguisher and first aid kit before flight and the operation of any emergency equipment appropriate to the flight.
At some stage before flight, I do it it during the pre flight briefing, I would aslo tell the candidate that in the event of a major emergency I will take control of the aircraft by announcing, "I have control". you will respond by saying " You have control". I will then fly the aircraft to a safe place and may ask you to assist with any checks that need to be actioned.
"We are using runway 20. Wind is 240/10, so we have a crosswind from the right. We will rotate at 60 knots. If we encounter a problem prior to rotation, we will come to a stop on the runway. If a problem occurs after rotation and there is sufficient runway ahead to land, we will do so. If there is insufficient runway ahead to land, we will look to land ahead, no more than 30 degrees either side."
Saying, "if you encounter a problem we will come to a stop on the runway" in my opinion is a dangerous statement." I would define that as:
If we have have an engine failure, fire or problem that would render the aircraft un flyable I will stop.
For instance if the door opened on the C152 it would be a problem but we would not stop. Always consider that some problems sometimes can be dealt with more safely in the air.
You are also saying after take off you will re-land if there is a problem, again you are putting a very ambiguous potentially dangerous statement into your mind- would you really re-land for any problem? Beware of making a minor problem into a major one by misunderstanding. An off airfield landing (or re-land) is not something you should elect to do lightly.
You also state that you would only consider landing within a 30 degree area either side of the centreline-so if there was a housing estate within that area you would land in it rather than the field 45 degree to the left? I would replace your 30 degrees with "In the event of engine failure after take off I will land in the safest area available"
Also remember that the ability to turn safely through a larger angle increase with altitude.(and experience).
Its a shame that many pilots never ever consider a local brief, Eg runway length & areas to avoid after TO in the event of an EFATO or even noise abatement.
In regard to pre flight briefing, as an examiner, I expect the candidate to point out how to get out of the aircraft in an emergency, the use of the seat belts and the position of the fire extinguisher and first aid kit before flight and the operation of any emergency equipment appropriate to the flight.
At some stage before flight, I do it it during the pre flight briefing, I would aslo tell the candidate that in the event of a major emergency I will take control of the aircraft by announcing, "I have control". you will respond by saying " You have control". I will then fly the aircraft to a safe place and may ask you to assist with any checks that need to be actioned.
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For my NPPL navigation skills test I just asked the examiner if it was OK to skip the briefing. The reply was oh god, yes please !
I did ask her to test the brakes when we were on the taxiway though, which she did.
During take off the door on the C-150 did open but I just ignored it until I had some time to slam it shut. Thankfully, the seat didn't slide back that day.
I suppose the important thing is to make sure you don't just ignore the briefing, but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.
I did ask her to test the brakes when we were on the taxiway though, which she did.
During take off the door on the C-150 did open but I just ignored it until I had some time to slam it shut. Thankfully, the seat didn't slide back that day.
I suppose the important thing is to make sure you don't just ignore the briefing, but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.
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but I would imagine most examiners would let you skip it.
The next time an examiner says it's OK to skip something, ask him/her if it is alright if you can skip paying the examinatioin fee too, just to balance it out and see what they say.
The only thing I can remember from my PPL GFT in 1968 was the Examiner advising me ALWAYS to check that the 'passenger' had actually strapped in! He'd obscured his (unfastened) seat belt with his arms to make the point.
On PPL Skill Tests, once we were in the aircraft, I would explain that I was to be thought of as a (reasonably) intelligent passenger who wouldn't ask silly questions, but would point out any aeroplane he saw. On the first navigation leg, all I wanted to know was the ETA at the turning point (with any update) and, if we were off planned track, I'd just want the pilot just to describe what he/she was doing to sort things out.
"If I don't say anything, I've probably just fallen asleep!"
For the 'emergency brief', I would expect something clear and simple. If the pilot launched into a full "Welcome aboard this PA28....." speech, then I would just let him/her get on with it - mainly so that they felt they'd earned a smartie point. But then I'd explain that, as I was the actual Commander, if anything actually went wrong at a critical moment, I would probably take control using the executive words "I have control" - but my intentions would be exactly as the pilot had described.
All those flying a PPL Skill Test should remember:
We've all had to do it ourselves.
There'll be nothing in it you haven't done before.
You wouldn't be doing it if your instructor didn't think you were ready for it.
WE WANT YOU TO PASS!
On PPL Skill Tests, once we were in the aircraft, I would explain that I was to be thought of as a (reasonably) intelligent passenger who wouldn't ask silly questions, but would point out any aeroplane he saw. On the first navigation leg, all I wanted to know was the ETA at the turning point (with any update) and, if we were off planned track, I'd just want the pilot just to describe what he/she was doing to sort things out.
"If I don't say anything, I've probably just fallen asleep!"
For the 'emergency brief', I would expect something clear and simple. If the pilot launched into a full "Welcome aboard this PA28....." speech, then I would just let him/her get on with it - mainly so that they felt they'd earned a smartie point. But then I'd explain that, as I was the actual Commander, if anything actually went wrong at a critical moment, I would probably take control using the executive words "I have control" - but my intentions would be exactly as the pilot had described.
All those flying a PPL Skill Test should remember:
We've all had to do it ourselves.
There'll be nothing in it you haven't done before.
You wouldn't be doing it if your instructor didn't think you were ready for it.
WE WANT YOU TO PASS!
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Very interesting points Pull_What,
With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.
You're absolutely right in every case. Obviously I'm referring to "I" when I say "we", but there's clearly no point in doing the brief if it could cause further confusion. I'll use "I" in future, which is an easy fix
Again, when I say "encounter a problem", I do mean "in the event that the aircraft is unflyable", but like you say, I should be more specific about the circumstances that will result in aborting the takeoff, especially since the main purpose of the brief is an attempt to condition my response to an emergency.
Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land.
I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!
Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time
Joel.
With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.
You're absolutely right in every case. Obviously I'm referring to "I" when I say "we", but there's clearly no point in doing the brief if it could cause further confusion. I'll use "I" in future, which is an easy fix
Again, when I say "encounter a problem", I do mean "in the event that the aircraft is unflyable", but like you say, I should be more specific about the circumstances that will result in aborting the takeoff, especially since the main purpose of the brief is an attempt to condition my response to an emergency.Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land.
I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!
Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time
Joel.
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WE WANT YOU TO PASS!
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Hello again Joel
Yes safety brief before start-ensure pax can actually undo the belt latch-it was my suggestion in 1981 to the CAA, through my flight ops inspector, that changed the public transport briefings in that the action of the release had to demonstrated. I had noticed that at the end of flights as an air taxi pilot that most pax could not undo the release easlily as they were expecting them to be like car belts.
It is an interesting exercise to do some perf calcs on your runways to see where you become airbourne and where you would end up if you landed back from say 50-100 feet.
You cannot learn to fly by numbers alone-the course has to encourage a development of your judgement not just figures based on folk lore.
I am an old ALTP and learning all the time too!
By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?
With regard to the safety brief, I've always done this with passengers in the aircraft, but before startup. I save the captain's brief until after the power checks.
Landing back on the runway is an interesting prospect. That's certainly one part of the brief I'm guilty of repeating parrot-fashion. I'm not sure that in the event of an EFATO, I'd be able to accurately determine whether I had enough runway ahead to land.
I wouldn't favour flying into a housing estate in favour of a field 15 degrees further on, but where do you draw the line? In the book "The Killing Zone", the author advises heading into trees under controlled flight rather than attempting to turn too far and risking a stall / spin. I'm sure that judgement improves with experience, but chances of engine failure through mismanagement are higher with lack of experience!
Thanks for your comments, I'm still a new PPL and learning all the time
By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?
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Thanks for the reply Pull_what,
It depends on the distance to the field - with engine failure at altitude and reasonably strong wind, I'd favour a field downwind, as I'd be able to cover more ground before landing. However, I'd reserve enough altitude to give me time to turn into wind for the touchdown. It's not something I've thought about in great detail before, but with a strong crosswind and EFATO, if the field was very close I'd probably favour turning into wind to minimise groundspeed at touchdown. I could cover more distance turning downwind, but I'd have insufficient altitude to turn back into wind before landing, so would end up landing with a strong tailwind and high ground speed. What would you suggest?
Joel.
By the way I forgot the crosswind situation on EFATO-imagine a 20 kt wind from the left or right-how would that effect your chosen field?
Joel.
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I only mention it as a consideration-you may be able to find a suitable landing area straight ahead but if you took an option to, say the left, with a croswind from the right your groundspeed would be higher and hence your 'collision with any scenary speed' would be higher too.
If you think about the aim of the exercise it is TO SAVE LIFE. You are not interested in the aircraft, only its occupants, so you need to chose an area (and manoevre) to complete that will allow just that. So many students seem to think that there will be a 1000 metre strip waiting for then when they lower the nose, all you need is the best area to get the aircraft onto and apply the brakes, you are very likely to have an over run- so that needs to be a consideration too. The Hawthorn hedge on the short field may be a better option than the brick wall on the longer field.
I would add- I would alway try and go for the into wind area --landing downwind puts your touchdown speed up and thus impact speed it also increases the risk of overun and a more serious impact.
As someone once said, aim for the field with the cheapest, sofest overun and go there at minimum speed!
If you think about the aim of the exercise it is TO SAVE LIFE. You are not interested in the aircraft, only its occupants, so you need to chose an area (and manoevre) to complete that will allow just that. So many students seem to think that there will be a 1000 metre strip waiting for then when they lower the nose, all you need is the best area to get the aircraft onto and apply the brakes, you are very likely to have an over run- so that needs to be a consideration too. The Hawthorn hedge on the short field may be a better option than the brick wall on the longer field.
I would add- I would alway try and go for the into wind area --landing downwind puts your touchdown speed up and thus impact speed it also increases the risk of overun and a more serious impact.
As someone once said, aim for the field with the cheapest, sofest overun and go there at minimum speed!
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and the other let it be known, through an other instructor, that I would recieve a cash incentive if he passed!
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thanks for all the responses. Definetly more than I have expected. the closer I get to the test the more I worry and get my self nervous. I just dont want to be the first to fail the skill test...
At least the bbc weather says sunny for saturday and sunday. I am brushing up on the Met exam. However i dont think taking the exam on saturday morning and than doing the last revision before the skill test on sunday. This is all really compact.. but maybe this is for the best. Too much time gives too much time to worry about it.
i have another question though: Stalls -deleted-
At least the bbc weather says sunny for saturday and sunday. I am brushing up on the Met exam. However i dont think taking the exam on saturday morning and than doing the last revision before the skill test on sunday. This is all really compact.. but maybe this is for the best. Too much time gives too much time to worry about it.
i have another question though: Stalls -deleted-
Last edited by screetch; 11th Jun 2010 at 10:43.
This close to your test, ask your instructor to give you a recap, he knows you and knows what you have done.
We all have concerns before tests but if your instructor says you are ready, trust his judgement.
We all have concerns before tests but if your instructor says you are ready, trust his judgement.
i have another question though: Stalls. I think we will cover stall without power, stall with bank angle and stall with flaps (approach config). In all you push the controls forward, use rudder to prevent yaw and roll and ease out of the dive or simultanious add power and pitch up into the climp. So what was the main difference between them again? It is all the SSR except when you do not have power.
When having 30deg flaps do you get them up before adding power or after you added power and pitch up for a climb away?
When having 30deg flaps do you get them up before adding power or after you added power and pitch up for a climb away?
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Throttle up to max power and release the back pressure on the control column. DON'T PUSH IT FORWARD.
The stall w/o power manoeuvre is fairly straightforward, since it is done in straight and level flight.
The manoeuvre simulating a stall whilst turning onto base/final is slightly more complex, at it requires you to balance the aircraft and roll out as you increase the power simultaneously. But it all happens very quickly and you'll be climbing in a flash. If you can't do both acts simultaneously, increase the power before you roll out the aircraft (because applying the ailerons whilst in a stall will disrupt the already-poor airflow and may potentially send you into an uncontrollable spin).
And finally the manoeuvre simulating a stall on final approach, though it's done whilst the aircraft is not banking, is arguably the trickiest. It requires you to immediately retract one stage of flap (3rd -> 2nd) as you simultaneously increase the power. As soon as you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the 2nd stage, and once again when you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the flaps entirely. It's especially important that you do NOT push the control column forward here because you're simulating a stall on final approach, i.e. you may be very close to the ground already and you do not want to loose any height by pushing the column forward, even if that means you restore your airspeed quicker. Height is of the essence here. Don't forget that the retraction of each stage of flap causes your aircraft to sink as you momentarily lose lift, so you should retract them one at a time and only when you have established a positive rate of climb. Also note that you shouldn't be pitching up right after a stall; although you want to gain height, you first need to gain airspeed! The key is to maintain your height as your airspeed picks up, and once you hit Vx/Vy, climb away.
Hope that helps!
The stall w/o power manoeuvre is fairly straightforward, since it is done in straight and level flight.
The manoeuvre simulating a stall whilst turning onto base/final is slightly more complex, at it requires you to balance the aircraft and roll out as you increase the power simultaneously. But it all happens very quickly and you'll be climbing in a flash. If you can't do both acts simultaneously, increase the power before you roll out the aircraft (because applying the ailerons whilst in a stall will disrupt the already-poor airflow and may potentially send you into an uncontrollable spin).
And finally the manoeuvre simulating a stall on final approach, though it's done whilst the aircraft is not banking, is arguably the trickiest. It requires you to immediately retract one stage of flap (3rd -> 2nd) as you simultaneously increase the power. As soon as you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the 2nd stage, and once again when you establish a positive rate of climb, retract the flaps entirely. It's especially important that you do NOT push the control column forward here because you're simulating a stall on final approach, i.e. you may be very close to the ground already and you do not want to loose any height by pushing the column forward, even if that means you restore your airspeed quicker. Height is of the essence here. Don't forget that the retraction of each stage of flap causes your aircraft to sink as you momentarily lose lift, so you should retract them one at a time and only when you have established a positive rate of climb. Also note that you shouldn't be pitching up right after a stall; although you want to gain height, you first need to gain airspeed! The key is to maintain your height as your airspeed picks up, and once you hit Vx/Vy, climb away.
Hope that helps!
Last edited by RedKnight; 10th Jun 2010 at 21:29.
As an examiner I want to know that the student is aware of his legal responsibilities towards passengers. Any briefing must be accurate and understandable. You willl do this, I will do that, no room for the Royal "WE". They need to know where the exits are, how to use them how to Brace etc.
A passenger does not need to know anything about staying on the runway, problems with the aeroplane, landing ahead or "Rotate" speeds which only apply to Perf A aeroplanes. Start telling them all sorts of crap and you will confuse them and most probably frighten them to death.
If we had to land in a field, I will ask you to open the door and adopt the brace position! Do they know what to do? If not show them. You might add that this is to ensure that you can get out of the aeroplane following the landing and bracing ensures they wont bang their head in the event of landing on rough ground.
If the student clearly knows what they are about, there is no need to labour the issue. If they fail to brief, it becomes one of the Aural questions in Section G. If they start spouting irrelevant garbage its part of the process of digging a big hole that often ends in failure.
When conducting stalling exercises, the examiner needs to see that you deonstrate correct use of controls during the stall and recovery; your comments above indicate that you are not sure so how will you convince the examiner that you are safe to carry passengers?
A passenger does not need to know anything about staying on the runway, problems with the aeroplane, landing ahead or "Rotate" speeds which only apply to Perf A aeroplanes. Start telling them all sorts of crap and you will confuse them and most probably frighten them to death.
If we had to land in a field, I will ask you to open the door and adopt the brace position! Do they know what to do? If not show them. You might add that this is to ensure that you can get out of the aeroplane following the landing and bracing ensures they wont bang their head in the event of landing on rough ground.
If the student clearly knows what they are about, there is no need to labour the issue. If they fail to brief, it becomes one of the Aural questions in Section G. If they start spouting irrelevant garbage its part of the process of digging a big hole that often ends in failure.
When conducting stalling exercises, the examiner needs to see that you deonstrate correct use of controls during the stall and recovery; your comments above indicate that you are not sure so how will you convince the examiner that you are safe to carry passengers?
Last edited by Whopity; 10th Jun 2010 at 20:48.
Screetch
Do you really understand what is happening to the aircraft as it approaches a stall or does actually stall, and do you know why you move some controls before others. In particular are you aware of what could happen if you apply aileron to attempt to level the wings whilst at or near the stall?
Do you really understand what is happening to the aircraft as it approaches a stall or does actually stall, and do you know why you move some controls before others. In particular are you aware of what could happen if you apply aileron to attempt to level the wings whilst at or near the stall?