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Seaplane landings England legal?

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Seaplane landings England legal?

Old 4th Jun 2010, 22:12
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Seaplane landings England legal?

Can someone summarize the rules on this for me as I can't find anything about it online.

Are you allowed o land on lakes and in the sea in England with floatplanes? I seem to recall that England and Wales are very prickly about all this, whilst Scotland is pretty much wide open. Does anyone know?
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Old 4th Jun 2010, 23:11
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MMmm, Solicitors sometimes cant even give legal opinions so I wont give you a legal anything. In short answer there are alot of waters in England that have been used, namely freshwater ones I have 4/5 marked on GE that various people have used.

As regards landing on the Sea, its only G-ESSL I know that uses it regularly but as far my flying budget goes the salt water would just blow the whole lot on maintenance. Its rarely suitable, and wouldnt be a good plan for everyday use. I have a lovely LA-4-200 for Sale if you want something sensible to use off whatever place you choose. PM if your interested.

Irish
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Old 4th Jun 2010, 23:24
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Thanks.

I love Lakes and I know exactly which aircraft you're selling. Burgundy and blue striped, right? At the moment can't afford such lovely things, but perhaps soon..

Just wanted to hear some of the practicalities of having a seaplane in the UK. It seems a bit like a hassle. Lake district allow it?
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 00:13
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Lake district is a big no. Nothing over 10 knots is permited on the water anywhere in the lakes.


Time to spare, go by air.

Hen ddraig

Last edited by Hen Ddraig; 5th Jun 2010 at 00:16. Reason: omission of "on the water"
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 07:02
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The problem with inland water is that it will be owned by someone. You will need their permission!
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 09:18
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It's just not practical in England AFAIK.
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 10:37
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Lake district is a big no. Nothing over 10 knots is permited on the water anywhere in the lakes.
And four knots on the canals, so they're not much use either
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 10:42
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But nobody owns the sea, right? And as long as outside the London CTA, the Thames should be fine, no? There is no speed limit on the eastern Thames, as far as I know.
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 18:47
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Adam, do some basic research, is google a mystery to you?

To land in inland waters you need the 'landowners' permission, no different to farm strips but more difficult to get.

If you think landing in the sea is smart - try to get some sensible info - yes it is possible - but it needs serious maintenance.

There are also serious operational difficulties in using coastal water and as for using a marina - very difficult is the best description.

Do some searching and gain some insight!
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 20:06
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Gasax, I've had internet since 1994 and believe me that's exactly what I've done. I'm not new to research. You try to Google any permutation of seaplane, water landings, England, UK etc and you come up with pretty much nothing. The UK Seaplane Association's website has nothing on it except petitions. This is a flying and pilots forum after all.

Lake's are regularly operated out of salt water in both Florida and the Bahamas. Corrosion X, regular fresh water rinses and vigilant repaints keep them healthy.
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Old 5th Jun 2010, 21:57
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I am curious to see what the result is from this. I've seen a lot of seaplane operations around Europe and the States (C206 & C208), both in coastal waters and in harbours.
Have seen permission granted in Barcelona Port and obviously in Hamburg on the river they use the seaplane for tourism on a daily basis.

So, why aren't seaplanes used so much in the UK, i am interested to see where this thread goes.

And on the C208, yes the seaplane operations does result in corrosion, and the likes of turbine blades are susceptible, thus that should be taken into account. But aside from that, they seem to do pretty well in choppy water, and quite easily get permissions.
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 07:53
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I think the opposition of the Lake District has a lot to do with it - there is England's premier sea/floatplane operating area completely out of bounds. That leaves some reservoirs, a few lakes in Wales, and the sea - for the reasons stated not an easy option.

Sad, really. I remember watching a floatplane landing on Lake Como while sipping white wine on a hotel balcony in Bellagio. Magical.

Tim
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 08:05
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It's different across the pond!

Now my understanding, a bit rusty, is unless the lake is specifically prohibited, you can land on it in Florida. ( And probably in Alaska, and Minnesota, the land of 1,000 lakes)

The only thing is, everything on or in the water has right of way over your seaplane, including alligators, swimmers, waterskiers, whatever, as they do not understand your needs.

In general, watery surfaces are a lot more available in the US and Canada than they are in the UK, here it is ancient landlord and fishing rights that get in the way, and of course in the Lake District, the understandable desire for peace and quiet.

Problem with landing on the Thames might be that the authorities tend to frown on flying under bridges.....

Ireland, being less crowded, and having removed the English Landlords, might be more welcoming to a seaplane operation?

But in the UK, alas, even the classic old seaplanes that used to grace our shores do come to grief, there was one in the Solent not that long ago, anyone remember the details?
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 09:58
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Re the Thames; downstream of Teddington Lock it's administered by the Port of London Authority (PLA) and you would need their permission to operate off it; upstream of Teddington Lock it's the Environment Agency, and you would need a river licence from them plus their permission to exceed the 8km/h speed limit.
Now I remember when Thorpe Park first started, they had a replica Supermarine S5 racer (Schneider Trophy type) and when it displayed at Farnborough, (late'70s) it operated from the long straight stretch of water used for the Henley Regatta!
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 11:09
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Another thing to bear in mind that many lakes in the UK form part of the drinking water system. Not just man made reservoirs, the Teifi pools spring to mind but there are many others. There are very strict by laws in place about operating craft from these especially with prevention of transferring unwanted biological material into them. I seem to recall any boats used on these waterways had to go through a serious decontamination process if moved from one to another and as you have to carry out the process every time you remove the craft from the lake it does make aircraft operations some what impossible.
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 12:26
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The operation of small floatplanes or flying boats from salt water has two main downsides (authority and traffic aside).

The corrosion is a big issue. Yes, with vigilant washing it can be overcome, but this washing presupposes that you have a means to get the salt wet plane out of the water, and heavily flushed with fresh water right away. Taking off from the sea, flying to an airport and applying a garden hose stream a half hour later is not going to do it. Those who are successfully operating from salt water have a lot of infrastructure in plance to make it work.

Secondly, and more to the point is wave height. Sure the sea can be calm sometimes, but not often. For any seagoing aircraft of 4000 pounds or less, wave heights exceeding 12 inches total are the practical limt. You can do more with skill, but it just pounds the plane, and should be reserved for circumstances where you have no choice. Even if the sea conditions are decent, the wakes of vessels super impose. I have flown a Teal (very similar to a Lake amphib) off a virtually calm lake, to encounter three super imposed boat wakes which just about ended the career of the plane. No damage, but a testimonial to the fine low speed characteristics of the Teal, just as the Lake. I have had similar scares in other types, so I am very weary of rough water. I have flown a Cessna Caravan amphib on and off 12 inch waves, and it's much better, but still hard on the plane.

I was once the backseat observer to a spontanious landing in Lake Ontario, in waves I would estimate to be 2 feet or so. The touchdown was well flown, but the water so rough, the plane just slammed repeatedly, and he went 'round. When he finally landed in the calm water, and attempted to takeoff, the plane would not accelerate at all - it was sinking. We taxied up a (thankfully very close) ramp, to find that the floats were so badly bent and wrinkled that many of the rivets had been sheared aft of the step, and they had the seaworthiness of a seive. I excused myself from this unhappy scene, with an unforgettable lesson on what not to do.

In Canada, the many small lakes offer many areas in the lee, and bodies of water with small fetch, so you can find your spot, if you've been trained how. It is uncommon to see floatplanes on the larger lakes at all, unless they are in bays and other secluded areas.

The references to operations in Florida are generally operations from a number of smaller fresh water lakes there. There are some saltwater places where you can get in and out in a secluded bay (in the Keys), but certainly not along the main coastal shores.

As romantic as float flying is, it really is only practical (on the small plane scale) in smaller lakes, which are not too busy, or noise sensative.

The other thing to remember is that if you're landing a floatplane, you are very nearly never at an airport, or even airplane freindly place, and could be somewhere totally on your own. The slightest maintenance problem gets big fast. Can't get it started at the airport can be managed. Can't get started on a secluded lake 50, miles from a road, is going to be a major and costly inconvenience!
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 16:28
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There are several WADs on Scottish lochs but not enough to justify buying a seaplane unless you live next to one. Never flown one but it looks fun. Beaurocracy rules UK as usual!
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Old 6th Jun 2010, 18:29
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Plenty of stuff to do in Scotland - legally.
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Old 7th Jun 2010, 07:39
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Technically the Crown 'owns' the sea - certainly between the high water mark and the 3 mile limit. Hence the Crown commisioners make a considerable sum from moorings, fish farms, outfalls - you name it.

More relevently they are a considerable number of bodies which have authority over the harbours, estuaries and oteher selected areas. They are the ones who generally have prohibited the operation of seaplanes within their areas of authority either by direct ruling or blanket maximum speed limits - as per the Lake District and Norfolk Broads.

If you want permission to operate they you use your 'considerable' research skills to get hold of the local byelaws covering the area you are looking at. If not specifically prohibited you then need to apply for permission. It will almost inevitably have to be in writing - because these are all quango council type bodies - and inevitably they will take some time - need to include it at the next committee meeting. There is a prob 90 that it will be declined on 'elfin safety grounds by people who have no knowledge or understanding of seaplane operations.

But if you get permission there is only the corrosion to worry about!!! (Oh and somewhere to moor, and get fuel, and not get damaged (or sink).
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Old 7th Jun 2010, 09:56
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Pilot DAR hit the nail on the head, and they are certainly the key issues. If you are a private user, with typical financial resources, then the cost of salt operation is likely to be prohibitive. Parts for seaplanes tend to be notoriously expensive... try an oleo for a LA-4 Lake @ $1950++ and you wont be so keen to rust them out in salt. A commercial operation will have a cash flow that may make the costs on maint/permissions/infrastructure viable. Perhaps the safest path to try salt water theories is one of these Polaris Motor whcih according to C206 Pilot extraordinarie who owns both says the Polairis can manage a 5ft swell.....

If common sense prevails here is a few spots you can probably secure permission to use if past use is anything to go by:

53° 8.162'N 2° 5.167'W
51° 7.406'N 0° 28.456'W
50° 56.300'N 0° 51.733'E

There's probably more, but I don't operate in the UK so its not my bag. No real point in making inquiries if you don't have a real move on purchasing/operating a seaplane there, as it is quite easy to sound like a day dreamer. There is a guy operating a Kitfox off floats somewhere on the "mainland" big article on him in the LAA magazine. He might be best bet for accurate info on the job.

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