Use of "xyz Zone" callsign
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Use of "xyz Zone" callsign
What is the point of the Zone callsign, as in "Shawbury Zone"? And how is this different from a "radar" callsign?
There are lots of zones in aviation... ATZ, CTR and MATZ for a start.
There is no explanation, or even mention of it in CAP413. The frequency reference cards that accompany the half-mil charts show the contact frequencies of almost all "zone" units in the RAD/APP column.
On one or two occasions, a slip of the tongue has produced "Shawbury Radar..." and has always been corrected by the controller - once rather forcefully; perhaps I offended the chap. To my mind, this implies that there is a difference. To the uninitiated, it seems that one is just supposed to know.
I use "zone" when dealing with an ATSU controlling a MATZ, only because I was taught do it at the PPL stage. If that is the only distinction, it seems a shade pointless.
Maybe it is in the Military AIP, but as they don't allow public access, I cannot check.
A previous PPRUNE post suggests:
"XXX Zone" - VHF transit traffic
I am sure that this must be written down somewhere official, but I haven't been able to locate it. Anyone know?
There are lots of zones in aviation... ATZ, CTR and MATZ for a start.
There is no explanation, or even mention of it in CAP413. The frequency reference cards that accompany the half-mil charts show the contact frequencies of almost all "zone" units in the RAD/APP column.
On one or two occasions, a slip of the tongue has produced "Shawbury Radar..." and has always been corrected by the controller - once rather forcefully; perhaps I offended the chap. To my mind, this implies that there is a difference. To the uninitiated, it seems that one is just supposed to know.
I use "zone" when dealing with an ATSU controlling a MATZ, only because I was taught do it at the PPL stage. If that is the only distinction, it seems a shade pointless.
Maybe it is in the Military AIP, but as they don't allow public access, I cannot check.
A previous PPRUNE post suggests:
"XXX Zone" - VHF transit traffic
I am sure that this must be written down somewhere official, but I haven't been able to locate it. Anyone know?
A military ATC unit will often have a number of different control positions, each with a different set of responsibilities, each on a different frequency and each with a different callsign. The controller with responsibility for dealing with civil traffic, will often be the ZONE controller whilst a glance at AIP ENR 2.2 reveals that, at different airfields, you may find yourself dealing with RADAR, DIRECTOR, APPROACH, TOWER or even, in the case of RNAY Fleetlands, INFORMATION. It all depends upon the specific ATC arrangements at the unit involved.
It's really no different to transiting a civil airfield. Depending on the size and complexity, you may talk to TOWER, APPROACH, RADAR, INFORMATION or RADIO. I daresay a fully licensed RADAR controller might get a little miffed if you referred to him as INFORMATION (No disrespect to AFISOs). Your 'forceful' Shawbury ZONE controller was probably just hacked off because the RADAR controller had just nicked the last Jammy Dodger.
In any event, the information on who you should be talking to is in the IAIP.
It's really no different to transiting a civil airfield. Depending on the size and complexity, you may talk to TOWER, APPROACH, RADAR, INFORMATION or RADIO. I daresay a fully licensed RADAR controller might get a little miffed if you referred to him as INFORMATION (No disrespect to AFISOs). Your 'forceful' Shawbury ZONE controller was probably just hacked off because the RADAR controller had just nicked the last Jammy Dodger.
In any event, the information on who you should be talking to is in the IAIP.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: ireland
Age: 38
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I address them as 'Zone' if they have a CMATZ, and 'Radar' if it's on its own. This is military.
If civil, I use 'Approach'.
This if already airborne and no way of knowing exactly.
If civil, I use 'Approach'.
This if already airborne and no way of knowing exactly.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: a galaxy far, far,away...
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aside from talkdown, there are 3 radar positions (UK mil); Director, Approach & Zone.
Director talks the a/c around the radar pattern (inbounds & trg)
Approach is departures, & inbounds until h/o to director.
Zone is transits.
Dir & App tasks may be combined
App & Zone may be combined
Dir & App & Zone may be combined
The wrong suffix to the callsign doesn't normally upset anyone unless you use "tower", "radio" or info"
ap
Director talks the a/c around the radar pattern (inbounds & trg)
Approach is departures, & inbounds until h/o to director.
Zone is transits.
Dir & App tasks may be combined
App & Zone may be combined
Dir & App & Zone may be combined
The wrong suffix to the callsign doesn't normally upset anyone unless you use "tower", "radio" or info"
ap
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Thanks all, especially aluminium persuader - I get it now, though this doesn't appear to be adequately documented.
I find it moderately amusingly that ENR 2-2-2-4 says the c/s is Shawbury Radar!
I find it moderately amusingly that ENR 2-2-2-4 says the c/s is Shawbury Radar!
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Happyville
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just to add that there are some places where Zone and Radar are separate positions, for example Brize. Brize Radar is the LARS provider, whereas Brize Zone controls aircraft that wish to enter or transit the zone. You'll find that they are often different controllers, although sometimes I believe that they are bandboxed. That's just one example off the top of my head, I'm sure that there may be more. 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 2,584
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
no explanation, or even mention of it in CAP413.
There is a clue there - a big one.
CAP.
"Civil Aviation Publication"
Is Shawbury civil? Then why look in a CAP for an explanation?
It is military terminology. Why would that come as a surprise? What does it matter what they call themselves? The service is what you're supposed to be interested in, not the blooming callsign!
Ever heard the designation "Clutch?" Maybe no longer used, just another example.
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is Shawbury civil? Then why look in a CAP for an explanation?
Cheers
Whirls
Is Shawbury civil? Then why look in a CAP for an explanation?
If you're going to be a smartarse, it's better to get your facts right.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: England
Posts: 858
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How about all of you not trying to be smart arses and get your facts right--just ask RAF Shawbury
[email protected]
[email protected]
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: a galaxy far, far,away...
Posts: 554
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think that in the mil terminal ATC world (ie airfields) only Brize use the suffix "radar".
I concur that it can be confusing because it doesn't follow the civil principle of a radar unit being " XYZ Radar" and a procedural unit being "XYZ Approach", however at the moment that's the way it is. It could have something to do with the fact that in the mil ATC world procedural approach simlpy doesn't exist.
ap
I concur that it can be confusing because it doesn't follow the civil principle of a radar unit being " XYZ Radar" and a procedural unit being "XYZ Approach", however at the moment that's the way it is. It could have something to do with the fact that in the mil ATC world procedural approach simlpy doesn't exist.
ap
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
What's worse, they don't even write out on the CAA charts the name of the MATZ. It only says MATZ, not which MATZ. So not only don't you know if they're supposed to be addressed as Radar, Zone, Control, Numbnuts or whatever, you can't even get the first bit right.
"Eh, MATZ zone closest to Culdrose Airfield, but also equally close to Predannack Airfield, eh, Radar, this is G-XXXX..."
"Eh, MATZ zone closest to Culdrose Airfield, but also equally close to Predannack Airfield, eh, Radar, this is G-XXXX..."
I think that in the mil terminal ATC world (ie airfields) only Brize use the suffix "radar"
ENR-2-2 also reveals that the unit to call for crossing either Predannack or Culdrose is Culdrose Approach.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Los Angeles, USA
Age: 52
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Would it kill them to write that out on the chart? Or is it better that I fumble with a brick AIP in mid flight? Yeah, sure I should have prepared that before, but what if I have to deviate or do an emergency?
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: around
Posts: 103
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Or just call them 'Brize', as in 'Brize, good afternoon, G-NUTS' and wait for them to reply...
Incidentally, some Mil airfields also call both the Approach and Departure controllers 'Radar'...
Incidentally, some Mil airfields also call both the Approach and Departure controllers 'Radar'...
Or is it better that I fumble with a brick AIP in mid flight?
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm with Anonystude. Call them 'Brize' or whoever, and see what response you get.
In my experience, though, I agree that only Brize seems to have the LARS provider called 'Radar' because they also have 'Zone' for transits. Everyone else combines the positions.
Just to add to the confusion... operating into or out of one of these airfields you may well end up using Zone as Approach because Approach is only on UHF... Benson seem to have a number of frequencies they can play swapsies with so they can provide Director and Talkdown on UHF or VHF, for example. (I'm glad they do, or it would be no IAPs for me...!)
Tim
In my experience, though, I agree that only Brize seems to have the LARS provider called 'Radar' because they also have 'Zone' for transits. Everyone else combines the positions.
Just to add to the confusion... operating into or out of one of these airfields you may well end up using Zone as Approach because Approach is only on UHF... Benson seem to have a number of frequencies they can play swapsies with so they can provide Director and Talkdown on UHF or VHF, for example. (I'm glad they do, or it would be no IAPs for me...!)
Tim
Guest
Posts: n/a
Since December last year all military RT was harmonised with civilian and is done in accordance with CAP413 - hence the big changes in the last CAP413 amendment and why you now 'touch and go' rather than 'roll' at military airfields now!
Brize VHF freqs are -
LARS - Brize Radar 124.275
APP - Brize Approach 127.250
ZONE - Brize Zone 119.000
RAD - Brize Director - 133.750
SRA - Brize Talkdown 126.500
TWR - Brize Tower - 123.725
GND - Brize Ground - 121.725
Brize VHF freqs are -
LARS - Brize Radar 124.275
APP - Brize Approach 127.250
ZONE - Brize Zone 119.000
RAD - Brize Director - 133.750
SRA - Brize Talkdown 126.500
TWR - Brize Tower - 123.725
GND - Brize Ground - 121.725
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Scotland
Age: 84
Posts: 1,434
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I've called Leuchars approach, radar, or zone, all on the same freq 126.5 & never had a problem, the word "radar" doesn't redirect the call to someone else, Perhaps I should try Lucozade.
