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Hi. This is my first post on PPRuNe. I'm a recently "un-lapsed" PPL with low hours. Just starting to spread my wings and fly a little further afield when I get the opportunity to, in the hope I will steadily improve as a pilot. I recently undertook a flight which has left me a tad confused regarding ATC.
My route (VFR) was 9nm clear of controlled airspace. I was flying at 4500'. I originally asked for a Traffic Service, but was only given Basic, "due to controller workload". Fair enough. The route I followed was exactly as I had stated to the Radar Controller initially, and never deviated. I was told to "remain clear of controlled airspace" and yet (and this is the bit that confuses me), when I replied with a "wilco" I was instructed to readback, twice, until I did. Am I missing something? Is a readback not something one does to confirm understanding of an instruction in CAS? Was I being given a clearance to proceed, as planned, in Class G, 9nm away from CAS?
Not many minutes later the same contoller instructed me to contact an ATZ I was passing 3nm abeam of at 4500', en route to my destination. I had considered a courtesy call myself, but decided not to as I wished to hold onto my Radar Service and not go through the process of re-establishing contact with Radar, re-Squawking etc. I did change to the A/G at the ATZ and told them my intentions, but did not return to Radar Control for the remaining 40nm of my flight. I felt a bit vulnerable, but believed, rightly or wrongly, that that particular controller wanted me out of his hair.
Any advice/comments/suggestions to help this low-hours PPL (me!) learn some more would be greatly appreciated.
My route (VFR) was 9nm clear of controlled airspace. I was flying at 4500'. I originally asked for a Traffic Service, but was only given Basic, "due to controller workload". Fair enough. The route I followed was exactly as I had stated to the Radar Controller initially, and never deviated. I was told to "remain clear of controlled airspace" and yet (and this is the bit that confuses me), when I replied with a "wilco" I was instructed to readback, twice, until I did. Am I missing something? Is a readback not something one does to confirm understanding of an instruction in CAS? Was I being given a clearance to proceed, as planned, in Class G, 9nm away from CAS?
Not many minutes later the same contoller instructed me to contact an ATZ I was passing 3nm abeam of at 4500', en route to my destination. I had considered a courtesy call myself, but decided not to as I wished to hold onto my Radar Service and not go through the process of re-establishing contact with Radar, re-Squawking etc. I did change to the A/G at the ATZ and told them my intentions, but did not return to Radar Control for the remaining 40nm of my flight. I felt a bit vulnerable, but believed, rightly or wrongly, that that particular controller wanted me out of his hair.
Any advice/comments/suggestions to help this low-hours PPL (me!) learn some more would be greatly appreciated.
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Hi!
I can see nothing wrong with the way you handled your communications. We teach students to use "WILCO" only to acknowledge requests by ATC to report something, but according to the ICAO Doc. 9432 Radiotelephony Manual, "WILCO" should also be a valid answer to a request to remain clear of controlled airspace.
But then, maybe, the UK has it's own special rules as usual?
Happy landings, max
I can see nothing wrong with the way you handled your communications. We teach students to use "WILCO" only to acknowledge requests by ATC to report something, but according to the ICAO Doc. 9432 Radiotelephony Manual, "WILCO" should also be a valid answer to a request to remain clear of controlled airspace.
But then, maybe, the UK has it's own special rules as usual?
Happy landings, max
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He was wrong. Remaining free of CAS is a given in G and does not require a readback of clearance (there is no clearance as it's only a service). In fact, talking to him him at all is completely optional, so he shouldn't have pressed you for that. But, since he probably deals with heavy iron all day long in some other controlled airspace, the mistake is probably human. Or he was new.
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I suspect he wanted to make absolutely sure you did not think you had been cleared into CAS. On your other point, if you were under a basic service then you were not (“I wished to hold onto my Radar Service”) on a radar service and you were not under radar control, ( “but did not return to Radar Control”). Basic service is as the name suggests, basic, even if you are given a squawk do not assume you are identified and do not assume ATC will notice if something bad is about to happen.
Rod1
Rod1
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Had a very good LARS Basic Service yesterday from Cottesmore and Waddington as I headed through the area. It seemed as though every cumulus cloud had a glider under it but all were reported (though with no height information of course).
Is it worth asking for a Traffic Service, does anyone ever get one for VFR flight?
Is it worth asking for a Traffic Service, does anyone ever get one for VFR flight?
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Had a very good LARS Basic Service yesterday from Cottesmore and Waddington as I headed through the area. It seemed as though every cumulus cloud had a glider under it but all were reported (though with no height information of course).
Is it worth asking for a Traffic Service, does anyone ever get one for VFR flight?
Is it worth asking for a Traffic Service, does anyone ever get one for VFR flight?
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Thank you all for your responses. My first PPRuNe solo seems to be going ok. (But still only on downwind!)
As a novice (again!) it is always easier when things occur as one expects them to. Obviously, in the real world of aviation that isn't necessarily going to happen. This is the first time since I started flying again, a few months ago, that I've had any reason to question what went on and why, with regards to a radar service. If I made mistakes then I want to learn from them. If I failed to see the bigger picture and appreciate the other guy's situation, then I can learn from that too, hopefully. I guess on this occasion my inexperience made it harder for me to adapt quickly to an unexpected (for me) situation, whoever's error it may or may not have been.
I will be doing a bit of brushing up as per your suggestions!
Thank you also for the welcome-backs. I'm enjoying it more now I think than I did the first time round. I just wish I could win the lottery!
Pom pom. (On PPRuNe finals, hoping for a decent landing).
As a novice (again!) it is always easier when things occur as one expects them to. Obviously, in the real world of aviation that isn't necessarily going to happen. This is the first time since I started flying again, a few months ago, that I've had any reason to question what went on and why, with regards to a radar service. If I made mistakes then I want to learn from them. If I failed to see the bigger picture and appreciate the other guy's situation, then I can learn from that too, hopefully. I guess on this occasion my inexperience made it harder for me to adapt quickly to an unexpected (for me) situation, whoever's error it may or may not have been.
I will be doing a bit of brushing up as per your suggestions!
Thank you also for the welcome-backs. I'm enjoying it more now I think than I did the first time round. I just wish I could win the lottery!
Pom pom. (On PPRuNe finals, hoping for a decent landing).
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The phrase is 'remain outside controlled airspace'.
In the UK it is not listed as a readback item. CAP413 Chapter 2 Page 15 refers.
However CAP413 Chapter 6 Page 4 and Chapter 7 pages 2 gives examples of it as a readback item, but only in connection with a request to enter controlled airspace.
It is unfortunate that many pilots in the past have requested clearance into CAS and subsequently failed to remain outside CAS before clearance was forthcoming. It is my understanding that the practice of transmitting the phrase regardless of any such request was consequently introduced by nats as a so-called 'best practice'. In the absence of a request to enter CAS the phrase can only be a cautionary reminder and therefore is not an instruction requiring the response 'Wilco'. When operating outside CAS 'Roger' should suffice as a response to this gratuitous phrase.
In the UK it is not listed as a readback item. CAP413 Chapter 2 Page 15 refers.
However CAP413 Chapter 6 Page 4 and Chapter 7 pages 2 gives examples of it as a readback item, but only in connection with a request to enter controlled airspace.
It is unfortunate that many pilots in the past have requested clearance into CAS and subsequently failed to remain outside CAS before clearance was forthcoming. It is my understanding that the practice of transmitting the phrase regardless of any such request was consequently introduced by nats as a so-called 'best practice'. In the absence of a request to enter CAS the phrase can only be a cautionary reminder and therefore is not an instruction requiring the response 'Wilco'. When operating outside CAS 'Roger' should suffice as a response to this gratuitous phrase.
